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  1. #31
    Incredible Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyotheseasons View Post
    I don't think the plan was necessarily to humiliate him as much as it was to throw him off his game. And in my opinion, one of Doom's exploitable weaknesses is that he is vain, egotistical and very much ashamed that his appearance does not match the persona he displays to the outside world.

    We don't know what the heroes' entire plan is. I am assuming there is more to it, but if there isn't, I'm not going to be upset about it. As much as I do not condone public shaming in a real life setting, after Doom yet again tortured them and threatened that their children would have to grow up without parents, I could understand using tactics that might hit a little below the belt to get free.
    Heroes are supposed to have higher standards then the villains, when that doesn't happen the heroes just look like moralising and hypocritical assholes. It doesn't matter that Doom imprisoned the Fantastic Four and tortured them, such behaviour from the monarch of Latveria towards uninvited guests is to be expected. If anything the Fantastic Four should be flattered that Doom prepared such bespoke forms of imprisonment for them. If the Fantastic Four are in any way surprised and upset by the situation 70 years into this relationship then they are in the wrong line of work and completely out of touch.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    In most other books, this would apply. In Fantastic Four, however, the family members are a big part of the book. Franklin and Valeria are just about as big a part of the cast as Reed and company. It seems obvious that another story is buidling here and seeing how the kids and Alicia deal with it tells us about them. If all you're looking for is heroes and villains fighting, just about any other hero series will do that. The Franklin plot is why the FF is different and not just another X-Men of Avengers team.
    I get where you're coming from but I can't help but feel that Franklin feels like a spare wheel at the moment. Too young to go on the more dangerous missions but not old enough to be independent in his own right. At least if Franklin was a mutant he could find a place on one of the X-Men's junior rosters in a team book with an ensemble cast. As it stands Franklin is just going to be overshadowed by his more famous parents.

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Heroes are supposed to have higher standards then the villains, when that doesn't happen the heroes just look like moralising and hypocritical assholes. It doesn't matter that Doom imprisoned the Fantastic Four and tortured them, such behaviour from the monarch of Latveria towards uninvited guests is to be expected. If anything the Fantastic Four should be flattered that Doom prepared such bespoke forms of imprisonment for them. If the Fantastic Four are in any way surprised and upset by the situation 70 years into this relationship then they are in the wrong line of work and completely out of touch.
    You're joking right?

    Doom has terrorized this family for years just because of his ego. Sue humiliating him in front of a galaxy doesn't even make up for half of the things he's done to them.

    They don't look like hypocrites and are not in the wrong because there is nothing wrong with what they did. Other heroes kill villains for less than what Doom has done. He was literally taunting them before he was about to kill them. He taunted Sue with her kids growing up orphans just a little before. He's lucky that this is all he got.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Heroes are supposed to have higher standards then the villains, when that doesn't happen the heroes just look like moralising and hypocritical assholes. It doesn't matter that Doom imprisoned the Fantastic Four and tortured them, such behaviour from the monarch of Latveria towards uninvited guests is to be expected. If anything the Fantastic Four should be flattered that Doom prepared such bespoke forms of imprisonment for them.
    That's a literally insane perspective, if you're being serious.

    "Higher standards" doesn't extend to being flattered at the forms of torture someone visits upon you and your family.

    In contrast, this sounds about right:

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    They don't look like hypocrites and are not in the wrong because there is nothing wrong with what they did. Other heroes kill villains for less than what Doom has done. He was literally taunting them before he was about to kill them. He taunted Sue with her kids growing up orphans just a little before. He's lucky that this is all he got.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    If the Fantastic Four are in any way surprised and upset by the situation 70 years into this relationship then they are in the wrong line of work and completely out of touch.
    Obviously, with the way Marvel Time works, they are not "70 years into this relationship."

  4. #34
    Incredible Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    You're joking right?

    Doom has terrorized this family for years just because of his ego. Sue humiliating him in front of a galaxy doesn't even make up for half of the things he's done to them.

    They don't look like hypocrites and are not in the wrong because there is nothing wrong with what they did. Other heroes kill villains for less than what Doom has done. He was literally taunting them before he was about to kill them. He taunted Sue with her kids growing up orphans just a little before. He's lucky that this is all he got.
    Let's not pretend the Fantastic Four are entirely innocent here. Over the years Reed Richards (and anyone else he can rope in) has contributed to numerous unlawful coups against the sovereign nation of Larveria. Leading to the widespread suffering of the Latverian people and the political destabilisation of Eastern Europe as a whole. This latest stunt by the Fantastic Four is just a petty outburst and far removed from any measured response. Nobody is going to care about the context, Herald of Doom will only be remembered as "that time the Invisible Woman pantsed Doctor Doom for shits and giggles."

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    That's a literally insane perspective, if you're being serious.

    "Higher standards" doesn't extend to being flattered at the forms of torture someone visits upon you and your family.
    Thought for the day: In an hour of Darkness a blind man is the best guide. In an age of Insanity look to the madman to show the way.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    I don't know why people are bothered. Some other story will just Doombot this moment away.

  6. #36
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I don't know why people are bothered. Some other story will just Doombot this moment away.
    This is a very valid point. Then again, Galactus being jobbed by a Doombot is probably worse. Why must I think about this stuff?

  7. #37
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    I get where you're coming from but I can't help but feel that Franklin feels like a spare wheel at the moment. Too young to go on the more dangerous missions but not old enough to be independent in his own right. At least if Franklin was a mutant he could find a place on one of the X-Men's junior rosters in a team book with an ensemble cast. As it stands Franklin is just going to be overshadowed by his more famous parents.
    I'm not so sure the kids should be shunted off much just yet. One of the BIG changesof the return was the aging of the kids and defining them in their new statuses should be done relatively quickly or we'll see guest appearances with even less consistency and continuity than we do already. But this is a case of I like it, you don't. Trying to convince each other seems useless here. I'd just say that Franklin is a mutant It's very possiblke he may show up in Hickman's stories this summer.

  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Let's not pretend the Fantastic Four are entirely innocent here. Over the years Reed Richards (and anyone else he can rope in) has contributed to numerous unlawful coups against the sovereign nation of Larveria. Leading to the widespread suffering of the Latverian people and the political destabilisation of Eastern Europe as a whole. This latest stunt by the Fantastic Four is just a petty outburst and far removed from any measured response. Nobody is going to care about the context, Herald of Doom will only be remembered as "that time the Invisible Woman pantsed Doctor Doom for shits and giggles."


    Thought for the day: In an hour of Darkness a blind man is the best guide. In an age of Insanity look to the madman to show the way.
    Doom is a dictator who literally tries to take over the world and constantly torments the FF....

    What Sue did is nothing compared to what Doom inflicts on her family and the world. That fact that this is even a discussion is ridiculous. I'm done.
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  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    From a story point of view, it's hard to get people to sell Doom as the alpha and omega threat he is to the MU if he was broadcast naked across the world. So a later writer who wants a more serious Doom will have to dial that away.

    And I am sure that's not the real Galactus either. Some impostor robot/clone or something. Eventually this will be Xorn'd away.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Great issue. The mix of artists gelled well, so switching from one to the other wasn't jarring. Hopefully Kuder can do a full issue again soon, though.

    Slott is writing a very classic-feeling FF. The situation here is iconic - the FF at the mercy of Doom as he gloats to the world. The pleasure is in knowing that Doom has, once again over-played his hand and over-estimated his own intelligence. All that's left is for Reed and the others to lower the boom. Loved the last page. Crazy that Sue has never used her invisibility in this way before (not to my recollection, at least).
    In the Amazing Spider-Man issue where they are reminiscing after Johnny's death, there's a story where Peter, Johnny, & Sue are fighting the Frightful Four and Sue defeats them by using her invisibility to pants them. She's then arrested for doing so and has to be bailed out by Peter & Johnny.

    But yeah, I have no idea why Sue completely exposing Doom like that is in any way a problem, this is literally an "Emperor Has No Clothes" situation, metaphorically and physically. He's threatening the universe with a power Reed already told him is gonna backfire, so its just another level of humiliation he called upon himself.

    Although now when I see his completely burned body, I'm remembered of how half-assed it happened at the end of Bendis' Iron Man and get a little annoyed...
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  11. #41
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Vic getting messed up again was the only part of the Iron Man #600 that really worked for me. So sad UWU.

    They confirmed Future Foundation plans in the letters page, and sales are very good so a satellite might launch. If so, I want Whitley to do it!

    If Sue really wanted to embarrass him, she'd have made him cough up $200. But the utter disrespek being put on his name here is profound.

  12. #42
    iMan 42s
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    Wait, wasn't Doom's face the only thing injured at the end of Iron man? Why is his full body now covered in scars? These weren't present when we see him again in FF#1 so where did these come from? The issue also shows that Victor's head is burnt as well but he was in his helmet when he was burned. The only thing missing was the face-plate which of course led to his face getting burned again. So where did all of these wounds come from? The scars on his body look like lacerations considering how straight they are, so are we to assume somebody tried cutting him..,several times?

    Also when does this story take place? Scars take weeks if not months to form. I'll let the facial scarring slide considering its magic, but the body and head scars would indeed take longer to form.
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  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    If Sue really wanted to embarrass him, she'd have made him cough up $200. But the utter disrespek being put on his name here is profound.
    Vic did pay Luke the $200 eventually. Whereas he owes Susie no money.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Wait, wasn't Doom's face the only thing injured at the end of Iron man? Why is his full body now covered in scars? These weren't present when we see him again in FF#1 so where did these come from? The issue also shows that Victor's head is burnt as well but he was in his helmet when he was burned. The only thing missing was the face-plate which of course led to his face getting burned again. So where did all of these wounds come from? The scars on his body look like lacerations considering how straight they are, so are we to assume somebody tried cutting him..,several times?

    Also when does this story take place? Scars take weeks if not months to form. I'll let the facial scarring slide considering its magic, but the body and head scars would indeed take longer to form.
    Doombots. Always Doombots.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Vic getting messed up again was the only part of the Iron Man #600 that really worked for me. So sad UWU.

    They confirmed Future Foundation plans in the letters page, and sales are very good so a satellite might launch. If so, I want Whitley to do it!

    If Sue really wanted to embarrass him, she'd have made him cough up $200. But the utter disrespek being put on his name here is profound.
    It just seemed really rushed, like he's fighting the Hood, reunites with Tony for a split second, then suddenly thrown into that weird dimension thing, face burned, and that's it. Plus I think the weird explanations in Marvel 2-In-One doesn't help how off Doom's quick turn to full villainy felt to me.

    But yeah, I am ALL FOR a Future Foundation book, especially by Whitley, because I love those kids. However, because this is "comic book planning" talk, wouldn't be surprised if it takes another year or two to come back.
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  15. #45
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Great issue. The mix of artists gelled well, so switching from one to the other wasn't jarring. Hopefully Kuder can do a full issue again soon, though.

    Slott is writing a very classic-feeling FF. The situation here is iconic - the FF at the mercy of Doom as he gloats to the world. The pleasure is in knowing that Doom has, once again over-played his hand and over-estimated his own intelligence. All that's left is for Reed and the others to lower the boom. Loved the last page. Crazy that Sue has never used her invisibility in this way before (not to my recollection, at least).



    Have you met Doom before? Of course he thinks it was a good idea. Doom isn't one to hide his light under a bushel as it were. He thinks his plan is genius and is eager to broadcast it to the world. Doom's ego is his Achilles Heel.



    Again, have you met Doom before? Doom's arrogance precludes any worry about anyone coming to his doorstep to challenge him. In fact, he welcomes it.



    I'll have to quote Austin Powers here: "Scott, you just don't get it, do ya? You don't."

    Yes, there are "glaringly obvious ways" for Doom to hold the FF. In fact, he could just kill them outright and be done with it. But that's not Doom's way. And it's not the way an FF adventure should go. If Doom ever did the "glaringly obvious" thing, all this would have ended fifty some odd years ago.
    Wow. We're on the opposite ends of the spectrum here. And SuperiorIronMan , I think your D+ is being generous. This is just lazy and not very smart writing by Slott here. It almost belongs in the line of comics for young readers that Marvel had called Marvel Adventures.

    First of all, this is one of the few times when I have to give Bendis props for doing something original and fresh and that was with his writing of Doom in Invincible Iron Man followed by his Infamous Iron Man solo. Now we see that Slott has stupidly totally tossed that aside. What Bendis did there was at least a more believable follow up to Secret Wars than what Slott does here. Or even what Zdarsky did in Marvel Two in One. One does not go through all the events, starting with the incursion over Latveria followed by his 20 some years as Rabum Alal circumventing the plan of the Beyonders to totally wipe out all that is and then pulling together the one surviving planet by sheer will alone to save all that was left without having some kind of epiphany.

    What about when in Infamous Iron Man when he saved Ben from the spell cast upon him by the faux Cynthia von Doom? Or saved Ben and Johnny a couple of times in Marvel Two in One?

    I think the only thing I can say about this is that apparently the Fantastic Four needed something to prop up their return to comics after their prolonged absence and that is a shame. It should have been much, much better than this.

    The stupidest part about it is the way just turning the cosmic joystick invisible foiled the whole plan. It didn't move....it was still there!! Doom would have "seen" it with any of his onboards systems. IIRC He was able to "see" Sue when she was invisible way back in Stan and Jack's run.

    Next to that, another cliche bit of writing is Reed saying Doom's calculations were wrong. And just how did Reed know that there were power surges AFTER he had been imprisoned at that point anyway. And how would Doom not know it? Again, lazy and cliched stuff from Slott.

    And why in the name of Jack Kirby did it take FIVE DIFFERENT ARTISTS to draw this mess? The only good part was the callback to Byrne's Wendy's friends story.

    And the remark about "shortcomings" are beneath the both of you, CaptainCleghorn and Prof Warren. I guess you had to come up with something "positive" about this weak sauce of a story. And as anyone here knows, being naked sure didn't stop Doom from killing a lion

    I talked with Jonathan Hickman at C2 E2 about some of the things I haven't liked about Slott's run so far, like the lack of a reunion between Val and her Uncle Doom. He said maybe to wait and see on that one. At this point, I'd have some serious doubts about how Slott would handle it.

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