Fantastic Four #8 (SPOILERS)

[Crimz]

Fox were in the process of getting their s--t together just when the merger happened. They made Logan (which is legit one of the greatest comics films ever) and then did the Deadpool movies, and got in on the "do-stuff-with-Marvel-that-Disney/Marvel-won't" market that Sony now has cornered (Venom and ITSV). I think that Doctor Doom solo movie would have been a great thing. Doom as a character is similar to Bruce Wayne. In that there's a layered origin, and long character arc from childhood to adult. Most Marvel characters, their origins are close to their career. And Victor would be Doctor Doom with or without Richards. I mean Reed warning him about that experiment only made Victor hate and resent him but even without that, Doom would be dictator of Latveria and an ubermensch who puts himself against every force in the world and the cosmos and beyond. Theoretically, Doctor Doom can hold a movie on his own, heck an entire trilogy and sub-franchise. Like Astonishing Tales 1-8 had him as a protagonist, as did Books of Doom and Lee-Kirby's Annual #2. And since Fox had X-Men you could have had a Magneto and Doom dance-off and so on.

The Fantastic Four movies have failed because they don't get the FF are explorers and adventurers first rather than superheroes. They are a mix of Indiana Jones and Star Trek only set in Earth and not in a ship travelling through space. It shouldn't be character driven so much as focus more on the setting and cool stuff. Like this time we are going underground, next time in the N-Zone. And they need to take a Nolan approach. Do a movie without Doom first. Get the team and tone and genre right, and then get in the ring with the big V. I think they should go with Mole Man or Puppetmaster in the first movie.

The first villain should be one of their space/inter-dimensional villains so that the exploration is prominent in the story. Annihilus, Blastaar, Terrax, Super Skrull etc.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

triumph and torment only worked because Doom was an established character.

That story covers Doom's origins and all the background you need to get the guy.

that's kind of my point. Doom isn't the # 1 villain outside of the niche of marvel comics readers. we're used to thinking about him that way. that's a different target audience than the people who are following the MCU.

The MCU definitely need a big story and event to follow Thanos. And the Russos want to do Secret Wars. And Dr. Doom is a huge part of that, whether Secret Wars I and he's the center of all things in Secret Wars II.

[Michael Watkins]

The first villain should be one of their space/inter-dimensional villains so that the exploration is prominent in the story. Annihilus, Blastaar, Terrax, Super Skrull etc.

i think they have to contend with an evil corporation (the gideon trust maybe) using Reed's discovery to access and exploit the Negative Zone. and i think the Four should have to face the creatures inside the Zone while also contending with a small band of mercenaries who have traveled into the Zone on behalf of that evil Corporation. this latter group would be led by a blacklisted scientist named bentley wittman (not yet the Wizard). what's left of his crew would become sort of a proto-Frightful Four. i think "Trapster" might be a little more believable as some kind of soldier-for-hire who has enough engineering skill to make sophisticated restraints. maybe Bentley is overtaken by something in the Zone that turns him into a movie-ized Wizard. there's precedent in the books when you look at Janus the Nega-Man's story. maybe something upgrades Bentley's intelligence while making him criminally insane. i don't know if there's a rights issue. but maybe one of the other mercenaries is Morris Bench and becomes Hydro-Man (a good foil for Human Torch).



if von Doom is involved, he's the hidden figure that the Gideon Trust answers to.

[Snoop Dogg]

The first FF movie can introduce Doom, but he should not be the villain or very important. He is not Doctor Doom yet, but maybe injure him there. He has to face Strange, introduce his power and equipment in one of those. He has to face T'Challa, introduce and flesh out Latveria and him taking control of it there. Then, payoff this build up by bringing him ready for FF 2, and you have a big player for the rest of the MCU.

That's my pitch.

[Michael Watkins]

That story covers Doom's origins and all the background you need to get the guy.

it's too much story. you could do it if Doom were only a sorceror. but they decided to make him a jack of all trades.

The MCU definitely need a big story and event to follow Thanos. And the Russos want to do Secret Wars. And Dr. Doom is a huge part of that, whether Secret Wars I and he's the center of all things in Secret Wars II.

Kang would logically be next now that the time gem is a thing.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

it's too much story. you could do it if Doom were only a sorceror. but they decided to make him a jack of all trades.

Stephen Strange is a medical doctor too. So having another scientist and sorceror would be a way for Stephen to get his old rationalist mojo back, and have him try and explore and balance the two. That can continue the arc in the first movie.

Kang would logically be next now that the time gem is a thing.

Kang is good for a one-off Guardians and Avengers movie. But Doom is in it for the long haul. Kang the Conqueror is a great threat and so on but he's not got Doom's personality and style. And Secret Wars is the logical next big event for Marvel to build towards after Infinity Gauntlet. And Doom is important to Secret Wars, but Kang is not.

[Michael Watkins]

Stephen Strange is a medical doctor too. So having another scientist and sorceror would be a way for Stephen to get his old rationalist mojo back, and have him try and explore and balance the two. That can continue the arc in the first movie.



Kang is good for a one-off Guardians and Avengers movie. But Doom is in it for the long haul. Kang the Conqueror is a great threat and so on but he's not got Doom's personality and style. And Secret Wars is the logical next big event for Marvel to build towards after Infinity Gauntlet. And Doom is important to Secret Wars, but Kang is not.

Kang is whatever they want him to be. keep in mind Vision's altered role in Infinity War.

[BAS]

Fox were in the process of getting their s--t together just when the merger happened. They made Logan (which is legit one of the greatest comics films ever) and then did the Deadpool movies, and got in on the "do-stuff-with-Marvel-that-Disney/Marvel-won't" market that Sony now has cornered (Venom and ITSV). I think that Doctor Doom solo movie would have been a great thing. Doom as a character is similar to Bruce Wayne. In that there's a layered origin, and long character arc from childhood to adult. Most Marvel characters, their origins are close to their career. And Victor would be Doctor Doom with or without Richards. I mean Reed warning him about that experiment only made Victor hate and resent him but even without that, Doom would be dictator of Latveria and an ubermensch who puts himself against every force in the world and the cosmos and beyond. Theoretically, Doctor Doom can hold a movie on his own, heck an entire trilogy and sub-franchise. Like Astonishing Tales 1-8 had him as a protagonist, as did Books of Doom and Lee-Kirby's Annual #2. And since Fox had X-Men you could have had a Magneto and Doom dance-off and so on.

Whether FOX was getting their s--t together or not is debatable. Certainly Logan was an excellent film, and I think the 2 Deadpool films they put out were probably their best Marvel efforts to date.
As for the X-Men -- Apocalypse underwhelmed, New Mutants is a mystery and Dark Phoenix looks to be a rehash of Last Stand. I would have liked to see them do well with all of these films - and still have hope that New Mutants will be released as I've enjoyed that iteration of characters since the original graphic novel was released.

But don't think for one minute that FOX had ANY clue as to what to do with the Fantastic Four universe of characters after Fant4stic. Their proposed concepts were going to be a Doom standalone (which I actually would welcome), and a Reboot FF with Ben, Johnny, Franklin and Valeria. Admit it... they were floundering with these characters.

The Fantastic Four movies have failed because they don't get the FF are explorers and adventurers first rather than superheroes. They are a mix of Indiana Jones and Star Trek only set in Earth and not in a ship travelling through space. It shouldn't be character driven so much as focus more on the setting and cool stuff. Like this time we are going underground, next time in the N-Zone. And they need to take a Nolan approach. Do a movie without Doom first. Get the team and tone and genre right, and then get in the ring with the big V. I think they should go with Mole Man or Puppetmaster in the first movie.

I can mostly agree with this. I wanted to see Fantastic -- and what FOX delivered was Mundane. Certainly the 2005 film reflected the family, but their major action scenes were ones of their own making and small compared to what potential was there. And they squandered Doom in order to shoehorn him into the film. The Silver Surfer film was a good step forward - Silver Surfer was well done, Doom was improved, but they didn't go far enough with the FF facing down Galactus.
The less said about Fant4stic, the better.

As for the Doom standalone -- I don't believe that should serve as a prelude to the Fantastic Four, but he can definitely carry a film by himself. In the end though... he's a villain, and it's a hard sell to a movie audience to champion the villain.

[SuperiorIronman]

Protagonists don't have to be heroes to be the focus of the story. If we can get behind Venom, Loki, and Thanos, we can get behind Doctor Doom.

[Abe]

As for the Doom standalone -- I don't believe that should serve as a prelude to the Fantastic Four, but he can definitely carry a film by himself. In the end though... he's a villain, and it's a hard sell to a movie audience to champion the villain.

A Books of Doom based TV-show could work very well. You can even ask Brubaker to supervise it.

(And I really want to see the New Mutants movie out : I kinda have great expectations for it)

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Protagonists don't have to be heroes to be the focus of the story. If we can get behind Venom, Loki, and Thanos, we can get behind Doctor Doom.

Let's not forget that one of the biggest movies in American history is The Godfather. So yeah, you can do a movie about a villain.

[BAS]

Protagonists don't have to be heroes to be the focus of the story. If we can get behind Venom, Loki, and Thanos, we can get behind Doctor Doom.

I didn't say they can't -- I said it's a hard sell to a movie audience.

Thanos was certainly the protagonist of Infinity War -- but he was built up over a number of films previously. Loki hasn't carried a film by himself -- but can now after his build up over the Thor and Avengers films.

Venom was setup as an anti-hero -- he wasn't really the villain of the film. If you want to start a Doom film as the first go -- you need to set up his adversary as well.

[BAS]

Let's not forget that one of the biggest movies in American history is The Godfather. So yeah, you can do a movie about a villain.

Realistically, this is probably the way they'd have to go. Show Doom overcome the hardships of his youth, but be ruthless in his rise to power.

The Godfather -- Michael Corleone wasn't a villain in his family's story, but he was certainly a bad guy in the end.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Realistically, this is probably the way they'd have to go. Show Doom overcome the hardships of his youth, but be ruthless in his rise to power.

The Godfather -- Michael Corleone wasn't a villain in his family's story, but he was certainly a bad guy in the end.

That's more or less Doom's origin story right. Even way back in FF Annual #2, Lee and Kirby made it clear that Victor was a good kid, and that he wasn't born evil or anything. He was a heroic revolutionary and guerrilla fighter who lost his parents to this evil guy. And you root for Doom over the Baron in both the Annual and in Books of Doom. You also root for Doom against Mephisto. Just like you start out rooting for Michael and his Dad when they were young and starting out.

[Michael Watkins]

That's more or less Doom's origin story right. Even way back in FF Annual #2, Lee and Kirby made it clear that Victor was a good kid, and that he wasn't born evil or anything. He was a heroic revolutionary and guerrilla fighter who lost his parents to this evil guy. And you root for Doom over the Baron in both the Annual and in Books of Doom. You also root for Doom against Mephisto. Just like you start out rooting for Michael and his Dad when they were young and starting out.

Michael being absorbed into a crime family isn't anywhere near the jump that Doom took from peasant to sorcerer tech genius feudal lord. the former is very organic. no suspension of disbelief was necessary. the rules of organized crime were already established.