Would the DCEU Earth have been better off if Kal had never existed?

[Superbat]

again, like many other superheroes.

Give me some examples.

[Doctor Know]

You seem to be illustrating my point, that most stories have gaping flaws but people let them go because they like the movie overall.



My biggest complaint about the Star Trek movies is that Star Trek used to be about something and there is no doubt it was very heavy-handed in how it delivered it's messages. But my biggest complaint about the Star Trek movies is that they are mostly action and little substance. I realize this is inevitable in a huge budget movie to make a profit. With Star Wars, we pretty much expect it's going to focus on action and effects. Mind you, I think both Star Wars and Star Trek movies have substance but it had to take a back seat.



Of course. Because he's Superman. I haven't seen GI Joe or Pacific Rim and have no intention of seeing them. In Star Trek, I don't recall them having any means to prevent the crash. I don't remember the specifics of Thor TDW as I only saw it once but I'll take your word for it. I'll compare MoS to the first Avengers movie as I remember that much better. The difference is not in the destruction but in how it is presented and what the characters are doing. "Avengers" doesn't focus as much on the destruction as on what the characters are doing which is a lot of saving people and trying to minimize the destruction (the Hulk notwithstanding, of course). MoS really doesn't show Superman doing much of anything except a couple of shots where he saves an individual but the scenes focus on the destruction and really don't show Superman's biggest concern being that people are getting slaughtered and trying to prevent it. Of course he cares, but the director doesn't seem to think that's what's important to the audience and he doesn't focus on that.



And I completely agree. I think it was somewhat criticized. But again, you are illustrating my point that when people like a movie overall, they forgive these things. Which means there was something at the core with Captain America that they liked that they didn't like about MoS.



Again, agreed. I also think MoS, the destruction scenes at the end aside, succeeded in doing what Snyder intended to do which was explore realistically what would happen if such a being showed up. I even applaud that. It's exactly what you said though. People have different preferences and also people have different preferences with different characters. Snyder's version of Superman didn't "do it" for a lot of people.

I'm glad we agree. So, we just need a fun Superman movie. A sweet distraction.

That must have Superman inspiring people, making the world a better place, making use of the Daily Planet crew, whimsical scenes with Lois, jokes (preferably pop culture jokes and one liners, like the MCU movies), have go get'em action scenes, an entertaining plot and villain, and stand up and cheer moments. Oh, and it can't be a remake of the Donner movies. Singer and the Supergirl show already did that interpretation.

People are so hard to please.

Totally doable though. I'm a believer.

[Adekis]

You could say that for nearly any superhero.

I'm with you on this. In Amazing Spider-Man, Peter enabled Curt to become the Lizard Man, for example. And most of Iron Man's movie villains either use Stark tech or were motivated by hatred of Tony.

Realistically, the answer is probably "yes," but that's just because movies like to tie everything up in a nice little bow so that there are as few sources of crazy SF stuff as possible. Makes it seem more realistic to people or something. Superman's threats just happen to be, proportionately, the biggest. Blaming him for them as if that means anything in the larger picture of either super-hero movies or Superman stories is just not really worth doing.

[Powerboy]

I'm glad we agree. So, we just need a fun Superman movie. A sweet distraction.

That must have Superman inspiring people, making the world a better place, making use of the Daily Planet crew, whimsical scenes with Lois, jokes (preferably pop culture jokes and one liners, like the MCU movies), have go get'em action scenes, an entertaining plot and villain, and stand up and cheer moments. Oh, and it can't be a remake of the Donner movies. Singer and the Supergirl show already did that interpretation.

People are so hard to please.

Totally doable though. I'm a believer.

I don't even think it cannot have substance and deal with issues but it has to have far more of the fun elements too. I realize that it's easy to mock that kind of statement. Let's deal with serious real life issues but make sure to immediately undercut them with a one-liner. But the problem is it works for most people. Mind you, it doesn't have to go to the extreme of Thor: Ragnarok, a movie a movie that so trivializes it's story that it makes "Superman" the Movie look like a Shakespearian tragedy.

I think it does need the elements you mention to work for most people but it should not be the Donner movie anymore than it should be any past version of Superman. Nor, while having fun, should the mistake be made that most Marvel movies and characters have no substance. I think most of them work because they manage to walk a line between fun and substance.

[Vordan]

Yep they would have been, especially if Snyder actually got to do his plan where Superman is corrupted by Anti-Life. DCEU Supes does nothing but make life worse for Earth. If he had died Earth would have been spared so much suffering and would have been a better place. It’s really pathetic, far from being a beacon of hope DCEU Superman brought only suffering and pain.

You can make the arguement that Iron Man creates his villains but Tony is explicitly meant to be a ****head before he gets kidnapped. He’s not a hero whereas Superman is pushed as some stupid Jesus analogy. Also TASM movies sucked. In the Ramniverse Peter is not to blame for what the villains do except maybe Venom. All the rest would have been villains anyway.

[superduperman]

Following this logic, all superheroes are responsible for all their villains. It's just the DCEU was particularly bad about it. It's been a while since I've watched it but IIRC, Zod and his group would have come to Earth looking for him regardless of whether or not Superman ever went public. This isn't quite the same thing as Batman putting Joker into the chemical vat.

[JAK]

Following this logic, all superheroes are responsible for all their villains. It's just the DCEU was particularly bad about it. It's been a while since I've watched it but IIRC, Zod and his group would have come to Earth looking for him regardless of whether or not Superman ever went public. This isn't quite the same thing as Batman putting Joker into the chemical vat.

For the most part, yeah - but it is true that Luthor in S:TM had a plan that didn't even involve Superman, he just made adjustments when he showed up.

So it's largely true, but not always true.

To be fair to Cavill's Superman, though: while he is the reason those problems are there, he does get them taken care of in the end. So he causes just as much good as bad. It's kinda of a wash, in the grand scheme of things.

[adkal]

Zod only went to Earth because Clark activated the beacon on the Kryptonian ship.

The beacon probably would have been activated by humans once they dug down to it. It might have taken a few years (to get through the ice safely and get around the security drones) but they would have gotten there eventually.


However, according to the Prequel comic, the ship sent out a signal before Clark accessed it (he was on a fishing boat at the time).

[Doctor Know]

For the most part, yeah - but it is true that Luthor in S:TM had a plan that didn't even involve Superman, he just made adjustments when he showed up.

So it's largely true, but not always true.

To be fair to Cavill's Superman, though: while he is the reason those problems are there, he does get them taken care of in the end. So he causes just as much good as bad. It's kinda of a wash, in the grand scheme of things.

You can say the same thing about Bruce Wayne in TDK and TDKRises. The Joker, Bane and Talia only try to destroy Gotham because Batman is there. Even in TDKRises, where Batman has been retired for 8 years and Gotham has improved, Bane and Talia still target the city and want to take down Batman. As mentioned earlier, Tony Stark creates a lot of his own villains and problems as well. Same for Oliver Queen and Barry Allen in the Arrowverse, and the Defenders characters from Marvel Netflix. Heroes are flames and villains are moths.

[Superbat]

The beacon probably would have been activated by humans once they dug down to it. It might have taken a few years (to get through the ice safely and get around the security drones) but they would have gotten there eventually. However, according to the Prequel comic, the ship sent out a signal before Clark accessed it (he was on a fishing boat at the time).

The humans couldn't have activated the distress beacon because they didn't have the key, only Clark had it. The signal the humans picked up could have been a different local signal the ship was sending out but it only started going off because Clark was close enough for it to detect him.

You can say the same thing about Bruce Wayne in TDK and TDKRises. The Joker, Bane and Talia only try to destroy Gotham because Batman is there. Even in TDKRises, where Batman has been retired for 8 years and Gotham has improved, Bane and Talia still target the city and want to take down Batman. As mentioned earlier, Tony Stark creates a lot of his own villains and problems as well. Same for Oliver Queen and Barry Allen in the Arrowverse, and the Defenders characters from Marvel Netflix. Heroes are flames and villains are moths.

Ra's tells Bruce that the League of Assassins had been trying to destroy Gotham since the time of his parents. If Bruce hadn't become Batman, Gotham would have been destroyed. Batman did attract Joker and Talia did seek revenge, but that was because he had saved Gotham.

Stark created Ultron and put the world in danger but he and the Avengers undoing Thanos's snap is going outweigh anything else he's done. DCEU Superman doesn't have that.

[Doctor Know]

Ra's tells Bruce that the League of Assassins had been trying to destroy Gotham since the time of his parents. If Bruce hadn't become Batman, Gotham would have been destroyed. Batman did attract Joker and Talia did seek revenge, but that was because he had saved Gotham.

Stark created Ultron and put the world in danger but he and the Avengers undoing Thanos's snap is going outweigh anything else he's done. DCEU Superman doesn't have that.

MCU # of films 22 - DCEU # of films 7

There's a notable disparity. Maybe is the DC films can get to COIE or World War III or Final Crisis. Then Supes will have a moment to be the big hero you proclaim to want to see.

Not that I think it will make a difference. I've noticed that when Supes does have an accomplishment or inspire someone, most people don't notice. And if they do notice, most people don't care.

I have no confidence that people actually know what they want Superman to achieve or even be.

[adkal]

The humans couldn't have activated the distress beacon because they didn't have the key, only Clark had it. The signal the humans picked up could have been a different local signal the ship was sending out but it only started going off because Clark was close enough for it to detect him.

Don't dismiss the ingenuity of the likes of Lex et al. They would have found a way.

Zod didn't know the ship had been sending out a signal prior to Clark using the key - he assumed it was because of the El-key. Furthermore, the signal had been active for several months - Clark was on a fishing boat when it went off but he was then working for several months in the truck stop (we know this from Lois interviewing the waitress) before he heard about the discovery at Ellesmere Island and made his way there. That's more than enough time for a deep space signal to reach the Black Zero

Stark created Ultron and put the world in danger but he and the Avengers undoing Thanos's snap is going outweigh anything else he's done. DCEU Superman doesn't have that.

DCEU Superman stopped a dozen Kryptonians from terraforming the planet and wiping out the human race, and (unwillingly/unwittingly, admittedly) came back from the dead and stopped Steppenwolf from taking over the world and handing it over to Darkseid.

[Superbat]

Don't dismiss the ingenuity of the likes of Lex et al. They would have found a way.

Zod didn't know the ship had been sending out a signal prior to Clark using the key - he assumed it was because of the El-key. Furthermore, the signal had been active for several months - Clark was on a fishing boat when it went off but he was then working for several months in the truck stop (we know this from Lois interviewing the waitress) before he heard about the discovery at Ellesmere Island and made his way there. That's more than enough time for a deep space signal to reach the Black Zero

DCEU Superman stopped a dozen Kryptonians from terraforming the planet and wiping out the human race, and (unwillingly/unwittingly, admittedly) came back from the dead and stopped Steppenwolf from taking over the world and handing it over to Darkseid.

Without the codex in Superman, Zod would not have terraformed the Earth even if got the signal and went there to collect the scout ship. No Superman means no invasion from the Kryptonians and without Superman dying or Lex contacting Steppenwolf the mother boxes don't activate and there is no 2nd attack.

That's the difference between all these other superheroes and DCEU Superman. Other heroes may have caused some of the major threats they faced but Superman is 3 for 0.

[JAK]

You can say the same thing about Bruce Wayne in TDK and TDKRises. The Joker, Bane and Talia only try to destroy Gotham because Batman is there. Even in TDKRises, where Batman has been retired for 8 years and Gotham has improved, Bane and Talia still target the city and want to take down Batman. As mentioned earlier, Tony Stark creates a lot of his own villains and problems as well. Same for Oliver Queen and Barry Allen in the Arrowverse, and the Defenders characters from Marvel Netflix. Heroes are flames and villains are moths.

Sure. I'd say DCEU Superman's percentages in this are higher, though.

I have no confidence that people actually know what they want Superman to achieve or even be.

People may not have specifics, but I think they may have more of an idea than a first glance would show. Seeing how JL got bad reviews, but when people spoke of Superman in the film, they generally liked him.. that's not glowing praise or anything, but it does suggest a general direction of potential tastes as it pertains to the character.

[adkal]

Without the codex in Superman, Zod would not have terraformed the Earth even if got the signal and went there to collect the scout ship.

You believe that Zod would have ignored the fact that they have 'powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men' by being on Earth? The tactical advantage of something like that is not something he would likely dismiss - regardless of how insane he may have become through 33 years of wandering the cosmos and finding his people dead at every turn.

The genesis chambers were already pre-loaded with 'in utero' Kryptonians, all he had to do was terminate the unworthy ones. The codex was for 'blank slate' chambers. It's implied that the genesis chambers at the other outposts were beyond recovery - Zod already knew which bloodlines and houses etc he considered worthy, the codex was mainly for 'going forward after the planet's demise' as, at that point, there was no access to the genesis chambers that had been sent out during the great expansion. The Black Zero changed that.

No Superman means no invasion from the Kryptonians and without Superman dying or Lex contacting Steppenwolf the mother boxes don't activate and there is no 2nd attack.

No Superman means Zod decides an outpost where they are 'gods' is preferable to continuing to wander the cosmos.

If his madness could be turned. His madness is a key element that tends to get ignored: he was so stuck in rebuilding Krypton and having it pure that he was willing to potentially lose the enhanced abilities Earth granted him. His madness was further triggered (at the time) by Kal's existence. If he wasn't there then perhaps Zod would have not jumped to encouraging the use of the World Engine.

DCEU Superman should have moved the scout ship from Metropolis, regardless of whatever claims the US government may have made over it. Heck, the ship shouldn't have ceded control to Zod, regardless of him being a general - it was under the captaincy of an El (Kara) and should have remained so (in my opinion).

That's the difference between all these other superheroes and DCEU Superman. Other heroes may have caused some of the major threats they faced but Superman is 3 for 0.

Care to provide a side-by-side list so we can see how the 'some' stacks up?