Would the DCEU Earth have been better off if Kal had never existed?

[Superbat]

That was always a stupid plot hole to me the mother boxes where on Earth for 30 thousand years and he returned because humanity was weak and scared over Superman's death. We went threw Plagues, Genocides World Wars, Nuclear War Scares, Assassinations, Empires Falling, but it's the death of Superman who only was on Earth a few decades and the public was divided on that brought him to Earth. To Quote Dr. Evil "Riggghhht"

As for would the world had been better without Superman in the DCEU can't say 100% yes but the world definitely would had been better off without the Codex.

If Superman wasn't ever on Earth, the mother boxes would never have reactivated and Steppenwolf does not return.

[superduperman]

Yes, and that's exactly the problem with the Snyderverse. But don't worry, I have a feeling we're about to find out what a DC movie universe is like without Superman because that's the direction they're going in.

[Doctor Know]

If Superman was the only reason Steppenwolf hadn't launched his 2nd attack, he could have done it before Clark arrived on Earth or when he was still a child.

Lex was only able to send the signal because he had access to the ship, and the ship only worked because Clark activated it in MOS.

That's what the deleted scene from BvS is.

Idk man. Because plot. I forget what Steppenwolf was doing prior to JL. I think he was banished or some nonsense. Villains move at the speed of plot.

The deleted scene only shows Luthor praying to Steppenwolf. The signal according to Lex was Superman dying.

That was always a stupid plot hole to me the mother boxes where on Earth for 30 thousand years and he returned because humanity was weak and scared over Superman's death. We went threw Plagues, Genocides World Wars, Nuclear War Scares, Assassinations, Empires Falling, but it's the death of Superman who only was on Earth a few decades and the public was divided on that brought him to Earth. To Quote Dr. Evil "Riggghhht"

As for would the world had been better without Superman in the DCEU can't say 100% yes but the world definitely would had been better off without the Codex.

Hey man, plot! Don't think about it too hard. For comparison's sake. You could also ask why Thanos let the Infinity Stones remain scattered for thousands of years and lent out the stones he had, only for the people to lose them? Loki, Malekith, Ronan, the Mystics on Earth, the Asgardians/humans/Red Skull/SHIELD (for the Cosmic Cube). Thanos could've retrieved them anytime he wanted to or just not given them out in the first place. But it took 20 movies and thousands of years before he decided to make a move and collect what was his

If Superman wasn't ever on Earth, the mother boxes would never have reactivated and Steppenwolf does not return.

I think they would've reactivated regardless. The ones in Atlantis and Themyscira came online by themselves with no provocation. Once active, Steppenwolf followed the signal. Remember, they were hidden and under the protection of the 3 tribes for a reason. Steppenwolf didn't just raid each tribe's dominion looking for them until he knew where to look.

Yes, and that's exactly the problem with the Snyderverse. But don't worry, I have a feeling we're about to find out what a DC movie universe is like without Superman because that's the direction they're going in.

By that logic, we should hate the Flash. Since the Crisis and Flashpoint only occur because he exists. Wasn't there a meme years ago that Batman created all his own villains and thereby he's more a detriment than a help? Or perhaps we should go with the Spider-Man villain trope.
Something weird and powerful happens to someone (Goblins, Octopus, Sandman, Venoms, Lizard, Electro, Vulture and it looks like Mysterio as well) and they decide to misuse their gifts.
Good thing we have heroes like Superman and Spider-Man who use their great power, with great responsibility.

[Powerboy]

Zod never goes to Earth
Doomsday is never created
Lex doesn't summon Steppenwolf

Am I wrong or has his involvement has caused more harm than good.

At first, it would seem that way. Zod would have settled on some other planet and never come to Earth.

But Steppenwolf was only hesitating to return to Earth after thousands of years because Superman was there. Yes, conveniently, he could have returned anytime in the last several thousand years but waffled until Superman showed up and then had to wait.

It's always this sort of argument with superheroes as with everything else. We would be better off without them as long as we ignore the times we would no longer exist without them.

[Powerboy]

That was always a stupid plot hole to me the mother boxes where on Earth for 30 thousand years and he returned because humanity was weak and scared over Superman's death. We went threw Plagues, Genocides World Wars, Nuclear War Scares, Assassinations, Empires Falling, but it's the death of Superman who only was on Earth a few decades and the public was divided on that brought him to Earth. To Quote Dr. Evil "Riggghhht"

As for would the world had been better without Superman in the DCEU can't say 100% yes but the world definitely would had been better off without the Codex.

Yes. The Kennedy assassination divided the country and affected the world. The threat of nuclear war. The Civil War. The Atomic bomb being dropped on two cities. World Wars. The fall of civilizations that ruled the world. But the death of Superman, who we barely saw except in brief newspaper clippings any reason why anyone loved him to begin with, causes the world to fall into despair. So he actually just made us feel so dependent that we felt like we couldn't do what was right and needed to be done without him. Without the distraction of his existence, old hates arose again and people felt they could get away with them again.

And even my point that at least he saved us from Steppenwolf is moot because he would not have returned if Superman had no existed because the Kryptonians would not have come here and Lex Luthor would not have been able to send a signal to bring Steppenwolf back.

Note that none of this was Superman's fault as a character but it just emphasizes how badly Snyder failed to think this out outside the box of the realistic social message he wanted to deliver. And I am not knocking the message, just the poorly thought out delivery.

[Powerboy]

Idk man. Because plot. I forget what Steppenwolf was doing prior to JL. I think he was banished or some nonsense. Villains move at the speed of plot.

The deleted scene only shows Luthor praying to Steppenwolf. The signal according to Lex was Superman dying.



Hey man, plot! Don't think about it too hard. For comparison's sake. You could also ask why Thanos let the Infinity Stones remain scattered for thousands of years and lent out the stones he had, only for the people to lose them? Loki, Malekith, Ronan, the Mystics on Earth, the Asgardians/humans/Red Skull/SHIELD (for the Cosmic Cube). Thanos could've retrieved them anytime he wanted to or just not given them out in the first place. But it took 20 movies and thousands of years before he decided to make a move and collect what was his


I think they would've reactivated regardless. The ones in Atlantis and Themyscira came online by themselves with no provocation. Once active, Steppenwolf followed the signal. Remember, they were hidden and under the protection of the 3 tribes for a reason. Steppenwolf didn't just raid each tribe's dominion looking for them until he knew where to look.



By that logic, we should hate the Flash. Since the Crisis and Flashpoint only occur because he exists. Wasn't there a meme years ago that Batman created all his own villains and thereby he's more a detriment than a help? Or perhaps we should go with the Spider-Man villain trope.
Something weird and powerful happens to someone (Goblins, Octopus, Sandman, Venoms, Lizard, Electro, Vulture and it looks like Mysterio as well) and they decide to misuse their gifts.
Good thing we have heroes like Superman and Spider-Man who use their great power, with great responsibility.

Okay, I will say that when people like a story overall, they tend to brush off any logic flaws or most of them. Even if they point them out, it's in a lighthearted way. When there is something about a story that maybe people just don't like at its very core, they tend to become hyper-critical and blast every logical flaw. The fact that we notice and emphasize almost every questionable choice or "plot hole" in MoS and BvS clearly indicates that there is something at the very heart and soul of the story that a huge number of people just do not like.

[Doctor Know]

Okay, I will say that when people like a story overall, they tend to brush off any logic flaws or most of them. Even if they point them out, it's in a lighthearted way. When there is something about a story that maybe people just don't like at its very core, they tend to become hyper-critical and blast every logical flaw. The fact that we notice and emphasize almost every questionable choice or "plot hole" in MoS and BvS clearly indicates that there is something at the very heart and soul of the story that a huge number of people just do not like.

Need more, "hey look over there", type scenes. Gotcha.

Lol

Think about the JJ Abrams Star Trek movies and his Star Wars movies. He fills his movies with distractions/high paced action set pieces to jump from one scene to another. He keeps his audience moving so fast that you don't have time to think about things. With his both sets of movies, the biggest complaints people had were that he clones movies (Wrath of Khan twice, A New Hope twice and Empire Strikes Back) and had Alice Eve in her underwear for the trailer. Story, character and plot things go unscrutinized. Remember, Star Trek Into Darkness came out the same summer as MOS. Into Darkness ends with a 9/11 space ship crash in San Francisco. The heroes of the Enterprise do nothing to try to stop it or help those in danger. By films end, the damage is glossed over. Just like it was in MOS.

In fact, GI Joe Retaliation (London), Pacific Rim (Hong Kong), Star Trek ID (London and San Fran), Thor TDW (London) all had big city destruction, and yet MOS was the only action film from 2013 that was singled out as being problematic. You ever ask yourself, why?


Captain America Civil War is another example of "hey look over there". Specifically the character of Zemo. Everything he does in the film is like he has the script handy. Dude succeeds at every stage of his plan. From finding the hidden Bucky tapes and location of the bunker, to bombing the UN, to Bucky being caught and transferred to a facility several hours away (at a then undisclosed facility where Zemo had already kidnapped and killed the exact person who would be interrogating Bucky), detonating an EMP he had on standby, to releasing Bucky from SHIELD custody, for somehow Cap + Bucky and Tony would make it to the Russian bunker, where Zemo had a VCR and TV set up to play the tape with the Avengers present, with himself safely behind a blast shield. The only thing Zemo failed at was killing himself.


Most people don't notice these things. Which is fair, I guess. The Fast and the Furious movies and the recent Mission Impossible movies have a lot of "hey, look over there" action set piece for scene to scene. Different strokes for different folks. We all have our own preferences for entertainment. Snyder's movies just didn't do it for people. But I don't think most of the criticisms reflect that. I think most of it (outside of the critics and social media influencers who have since admitted to liking MOS and BVS but turning in rotten reviews in order to bring traffic to their channels and websites) was dog-piling. They saw the division and decided to heave on more complaints. Fairly and unfairly.

[stargazer01]

Zod never goes to Earth
Doomsday is never created
Lex doesn't summon Steppenwolf

Am I wrong or has his involvement has caused more harm than good.

who created Doomsday and called Steppenwolf? Lex. Nobody forced him to do it but his own hate.

In Superman 2, it's Superman himself who frees the Kryptonian criminals. In the same movie he decides Superman is not needed anymore and he loses his powers to be a normal human for Lois. But then in some convenient way he gets his powers back and is able to defend the world from Zod.

[Superbat]

who created Doomsday and called Steppenwolf? Lex. Nobody forced him to do it but his own hate.

In Superman 2, it's Superman himself who frees the Kryptonian criminals. In the same movie he decides Superman is not needed anymore and he loses his powers to be a normal human for Lois. But then in some convenient way he gets his powers back and is able to defend the world from Zod.

Lex did it because of his hate for Superman and was only able to do it because of Superman. No Superman means no Doomsday or Steppenwolf attacking Earth again.

Superman II sucked but in Superman: The Movie Lex's plan had nothing do with Superman. Zod's crew took over the world but they didn't kill as many people as Lex would have if Superman hadn't stopped his plan. Without Donnerverse Superman, Zod's crew wouldn't have terrorized Earth but this is outweighed by the millions of people that would have died due to Lex's plan.

The DCEU's Superman existence has caused more deaths that would have been prevented if he had never been sent to Earth.

[stargazer01]

Lex did it because of his hate for Superman and was only able to do it because of Superman. No Superman means no Doomsday or Steppenwolf attacking Earth again.

Superman II sucked but in Superman: The Movie Lex's plan had nothing do with Superman. Zod's crew took over the world but they didn't kill as many people as Lex would have if Superman hadn't stopped his plan. Without Donnerverse Superman, Zod's crew wouldn't have terrorized Earth but this is outweighed by the millions of people that would have died due to Lex's plan.

The DCEU's Superman existence has caused more deaths that would have been prevented if he had never been sent to Earth.

by your logic ALL superheroes cause more death than prevented because of all the destruction during the fights, etc. Again, Lex Luthor did bad things because he was evil and hated Superman. Superman didn't ask him to do it, he figured it out himself because Lex is very smart, but he is also very egocentric.

[Superbat]

by your logic ALL superheroes cause more death than prevented because of all the destruction during the fights, etc. Again, Lex Luthor did bad things because he was evil and hated Superman. Superman didn't ask him to do it, he figured it out himself because Lex is very smart, but he is also very egocentric.

The villains would not and could not have done what did in the Snyder trilogy if Superman didn't exist. This is not the same as all superheroes because their terror would have still happened if the superheroes didn't exist. I am not blaming Superman for what others did but I am pointing out that if he didn't exist things would have turned out better.

[stargazer01]

The villains would not and could not have done what did in the Snyder trilogy if Superman didn't exist. This is not the same as all superheroes because their terror would have still happened if the superheroes didn't exist. I am not blaming Superman for what others did but I am pointing out that if he didn't exist things would have turned out better.

sorry but I think the human race has repeatedly shown how destructive we can be. We are already capable of destroying this planet and/or the whole human race faster than before. Sometimes I'm not sure how we still exist.

[Superbat]

sorry but I think the human race has repeatedly shown how destructive we can be. We are already capable of destroying this planet and/or the whole human race faster than before. Sometimes I'm not sure how we still exist.

Ok but Superman's presence on Earth has caused more suffering than good. That's the difference between DCEU Superman and other versions of Superman.

[Powerboy]

Need more, "hey look over there", type scenes. Gotcha.

Lol

You seem to be illustrating my point, that most stories have gaping flaws but people let them go because they like the movie overall.

Think about the JJ Abrams Star Trek movies and his Star Wars movies. He fills his movies with distractions/high paced action set pieces to jump from one scene to another. He keeps his audience moving so fast that you don't have time to think about things. With his both sets of movies, the biggest complaints people had were that he clones movies (Wrath of Khan twice, A New Hope twice and Empire Strikes Back) and had Alice Eve in her underwear for the trailer. Story, character and plot things go unscrutinized. Remember, Star Trek Into Darkness came out the same summer as MOS. Into Darkness ends with a 9/11 space ship crash in San Francisco. The heroes of the Enterprise do nothing to try to stop it or help those in danger. By films end, the damage is glossed over. Just like it was in MOS.

My biggest complaint about the Star Trek movies is that Star Trek used to be about something and there is no doubt it was very heavy-handed in how it delivered it's messages. But my biggest complaint about the Star Trek movies is that they are mostly action and little substance. I realize this is inevitable in a huge budget movie to make a profit. With Star Wars, we pretty much expect it's going to focus on action and effects. Mind you, I think both Star Wars and Star Trek movies have substance but it had to take a back seat.

In fact, GI Joe Retaliation (London), Pacific Rim (Hong Kong), Star Trek ID (London and San Fran), Thor TDW (London) all had big city destruction, and yet MOS was the only action film from 2013 that was singled out as being problematic. You ever ask yourself, why?

Of course. Because he's Superman. I haven't seen GI Joe or Pacific Rim and have no intention of seeing them. In Star Trek, I don't recall them having any means to prevent the crash. I don't remember the specifics of Thor TDW as I only saw it once but I'll take your word for it. I'll compare MoS to the first Avengers movie as I remember that much better. The difference is not in the destruction but in how it is presented and what the characters are doing. "Avengers" doesn't focus as much on the destruction as on what the characters are doing which is a lot of saving people and trying to minimize the destruction (the Hulk notwithstanding, of course). MoS really doesn't show Superman doing much of anything except a couple of shots where he saves an individual but the scenes focus on the destruction and really don't show Superman's biggest concern being that people are getting slaughtered and trying to prevent it. Of course he cares, but the director doesn't seem to think that's what's important to the audience and he doesn't focus on that.

Captain America Civil War is another example of "hey look over there". Specifically the character of Zemo. Everything he does in the film is like he has the script handy. Dude succeeds at every stage of his plan. From finding the hidden Bucky tapes and location of the bunker, to bombing the UN, to Bucky being caught and transferred to a facility several hours away (at a then undisclosed facility where Zemo had already kidnapped and killed the exact person who would be interrogating Bucky), detonating an EMP he had on standby, to releasing Bucky from SHIELD custody, for somehow Cap + Bucky and Tony would make it to the Russian bunker, where Zemo had a VCR and TV set up to play the tape with the Avengers present, with himself safely behind a blast shield. The only thing Zemo failed at was killing himself.

And I completely agree. I think it was somewhat criticized. But again, you are illustrating my point that when people like a movie overall, they forgive these things. Which means there was something at the core with Captain America that they liked that they didn't like about MoS.

Most people don't notice these things. Which is fair, I guess. The Fast and the Furious movies and the recent Mission Impossible movies have a lot of "hey, look over there" action set piece for scene to scene. Different strokes for different folks. We all have our own preferences for entertainment. Snyder's movies just didn't do it for people. But I don't think most of the criticisms reflect that. I think most of it (outside of the critics and social media influencers who have since admitted to liking MOS and BVS but turning in rotten reviews in order to bring traffic to their channels and websites) was dog-piling. They saw the division and decided to heave on more complaints. Fairly and unfairly.

Again, agreed. I also think MoS, the destruction scenes at the end aside, succeeded in doing what Snyder intended to do which was explore realistically what would happen if such a being showed up. I even applaud that. It's exactly what you said though. People have different preferences and also people have different preferences with different characters. Snyder's version of Superman didn't "do it" for a lot of people.

[stargazer01]

Ok but Superman's presence on Earth has caused more suffering than good. That's the difference between DCEU Superman and other versions of Superman.

again, like many other superheroes.