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  1. #121
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Okay other than a few Amazons throughout the many runs of Wonder Woman. We all agree no sex raids right? I mean I can see that more on the Banas but I don’t even want them to do it often rather has a punishment to men who have wrong women. For example, they go to towns and any man that has harmed women they will do the same to them.

  2. #122
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Okay other than a few Amazons throughout the many runs of Wonder Woman. We all agree no sex raids right? I mean I can see that more on the Banas but I don’t even want them to do it often rather has a punishment to men who have wrong women. For example, they go to towns and any man that has harmed women they will do the same to them.
    Uh, no, sex raids are kino.
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  3. #123
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    How do you guys feel about JL: DARK Wonder Woman?
    Last edited by Shockingjustice; 05-05-2019 at 01:20 PM.

  4. #124
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shockingjustice View Post
    How do you guys feel about JL: DARK Wonder Woman?
    I assume you're talking about Tynion's current Justice League Dark run. It's a bit heavy on the sword and shield, but overall I think it's an excellent depiction of Diana. She gets to show leadership in a way that she isn't allowed to when Batman and Superman are around, lots of lead by example, her compassion is a strong driver and a strength for her.

    Also, unlike Orlando's and Wilson's runs, Justice League Dark has had a much more consistent and overall higher art quality.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  5. #125
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shockingjustice View Post
    How do you guys feel about JL: DARK Wonder Woman?
    Love it. Wouldn’t mind Tynion taking over the WW book if he could maintain that quality level on her solo. Also he’s a huge Circe fan which gets him points with me.

  6. #126
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Now one thing that many writers have tried to do is make another Amazons equal to Diana. Like Orana, Nubia or Artemis. However, Artemis has to afflictions with Diana in her own book.

  7. #127
    Spectacular Member greymoon's Avatar
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    The million dollar question...(not really)

  8. #128
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    The Invisible Plane is about as redundant to the WW mythos in terms of her powers as her bracelets are considering that she's already invulnerable.

    If we can have both her invulnerability and her bracelets we can have the plane and her power of flight as well.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  9. #129
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Superman is totally a Jesus figure to me. His otherworldly father Jor-El sent his only son to Earth to save us, inspire us and give us hope. He was even killed and came back to life. And he can fly and has superpowers that make him seem like a god. The Jesus/Superman parallels exist for a reason.
    No, no, no. That's a movie thing. Maybe it was utilized in comcis before that, too, but it wasn't there originally. Superman was sent away from Krypton to save baby Kal-El's life from the planet exploding. It has nothing to do with helping earth. He would not have been sent if the planet was not about to explode. And I much prefer that version. No space-Jesus if I had my way.

    I think for Wonder Woman, part of the issue is that her early setting was very specific to WWII. Superman and Batman's can be anytime. They are not tied to a specific era. So they can be reused and stay constant through-out comic (and movie) history for contemporary tv shows and movies. Wonder Woman can't. So she needs a new purpose. She can't leave to fight the nazis, and love-at-first-sight is no longer deemed the best or most empowering or noble/heroic reason. So a new writer comes along and reworks it a bit - timeframe, motive for leaving, goal in man's world, etc. And uses that to inform his/her particular depiction of the character. But it's not "the original" the way Bats and Supes are, and none of these new ones have become iconic in the same way (partially because they have't been around as long and utilized over and over again in multiple media). Because the new departure isn't iconic, when the next new writer comes along, they feel free to change it up.

    I can't really say why her supporting didn't stay, except perhaps that Steve's military career was more tied the war-period and types of battles Diana did then, and so he was ill-used in the silver age (trust me, he was), and so dropped. And new characters introduced. And characters that have been around less time are more disposable to new writers. Etta suffered from being a comic relief character and got jettisoned that way. Alfred was also originally comic relief and killed off, but the tv show ended up changing that.

    Bats and Supes have had various personalities over the years, too, just like Wonder Woman. Really, until the late sixties, specific personality was somewhat weak in comics. I definitely prefer certain ones to others. But, the consistent setting and a few consistent, well-known to general audiences, characters probably does help them be more accessible. More accessible means more movies, cartoons, shows. Which means greater exposure to general audience, more sales, more people wanting to write title, etc. And comic sales aren't what they once were, anyway.

    I really do think being tied to a specific-era in origin that could not continue led to a necessity to change things up, and a certain lack of consistency. There can be a plus to that - it gives writers new freedom to try new things. Thing is, just as writers feel free to change up origin, they also change up motivations, goals, and personality. I don't even think I could tell you what drives Diana or what her goals are or even what her personality generally is. I mean, I could, for what they were in Rebirth, since I've read. But the same ones don't apply to her in the post-crisis era, the bronze age, etc. Until there is an iconic version of her, writers are going to feel free to change it up. They do with most characters other than Batman and Superman. Barry got reworked to have his mom murdered. A tragic of Hal's dad was added. Even Superman, we have an evil-dad going on write now. But some of the others have a status quo to go back to when a new writer comes on. And Diana really doesn't.

    Now one thing that many writers have tried to do is make another Amazons equal to Diana.
    I actually like the original version where all Amazons have the same kind of power, and Diana only triumphed on skill. But, again, it's been changed up so many times there's not an set-in-concrete way that everyone can agree is what is "correct."
    Last edited by Tzigone; 06-22-2019 at 03:01 PM.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    No, no, no. That's a movie thing. Maybe it was utilized in comcis before that, too, but it wasn't there originally. Superman was sent away from Krypton to save baby Kal-El's life from the planet exploding. It has nothing to do with helping earth. He would not have been sent if the planet was not about to explode. And I much prefer that version. No space-Jesus if I had my way.

    I think for Wonder Woman, part of the issue is that her early setting was very specific to WWII. Superman and Batman's can be anytime. They are not tied to a specific era. So they can be reused and stay constant through-out comic (and movie) history for contemporary tv shows and movies. Wonder Woman can't. So she needs a new purpose. She can't leave to fight the nazis, and love-at-first-sight is no longer deemed the best or most empowering or noble/heroic reason. So a new writer comes along and reworks it a bit - timeframe, motive for leaving, goal in man's world, etc. And uses that to inform his/her particular depiction of the character. But it's not "the original" the way Bats and Supes are, and none of these new ones have become iconic in the same way (partially because they have't been around as long and utilized over and over again in multiple media). Because the new departure isn't iconic, when the next new writer comes along, they feel free to change it up.

    I can't really say why her supporting didn't stay, except perhaps that Steve's military career was more tied the war-period and types of battles Diana did then, and so he was ill-used in the silver age (trust me, he was), and so dropped. And new characters introduced. And characters that have been around less time are more disposable to new writers. Etta suffered from being a comic relief character and got jettisoned that way. Alfred was also originally comic relief and killed off, but the tv show ended up changing that.

    Bats and Supes have had various personalities over the years, too, just like Wonder Woman. Really, until the late sixties, specific personality was somewhat weak in comics. I definitely prefer certain ones to others. But, the consistent setting and a few consistent, well-known to general audiences, characters probably does help them be more accessible. More accessible means more movies, cartoons, shows. Which means greater exposure to general audience, more sales, more people wanting to write title, etc. And comic sales aren't what they once were, anyway.

    I really do think being tied to a specific-era in origin that could not continue led to a necessity to change things up, and a certain lack of consistency. There can be a plus to that - it gives writers new freedom to try new things. Thing is, just as writers feel free to change up origin, they also change up motivations, goals, and personality. I don't even think I could tell you what drives Diana or what her goals are or even what her personality generally is. I mean, I could, for what they were in Rebirth, since I've read. But the same ones don't apply to her in the post-crisis era, the bronze age, etc. Until there is an iconic version of her, writers are going to feel free to change it up. They do with most characters other than Batman and Superman. Barry got reworked to have his mom murdered. A tragic of Hal's dad was added. Even Superman, we have an evil-dad going on write now. But some of the others have a status quo to go back to when a new writer comes on. And Diana really doesn't.

    I actually like the original version where all Amazons have the same kind of power, and Diana only triumphed on skill. But, again, it's been changed up so many times there's not an set-in-concrete way that everyone can agree is what is "correct."
    I think Diana already has an iconic origin. Being made from a clay figure. Her mission has been about fighting for peace, equality and truth since her debut. The motive that makes her leave the island may have changed since the very first run. But that is a minor detail that can be dealt with easily. When Perez he reintroduced her to the modern world, he also reworked her reason to leave the island. The real problem is that she lacks an editor that actually cares about maintaining consistency. If writers change everything is because they are allowed to. And because there have been obstacles in the past. I remember some writer from Post Crisis saying they weren't allowed to use characters from previous runs. So basically you need the heads at DC to stand firm and make sure that there is a status quo that every new writer must follow. And so far, it doesn't seem like they care that much about consistency.

  11. #131
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I think Diana already has an iconic origin. Being made from a clay figure.
    While I like that (hate the Zeus-daddy), that's not her origin as a hero, just her birth. It's not how she got "here" (regular world). Her origin as a hero has to be tied to when and why she decided to become a hero/come to outside world. If her reason was curiosity/exploration, then she will act differently that she will if her reason is to save mankind for ending all war (by killing Area) or to fight evil nazis and win a war or to be an ambassador, spreading Amazonian values/wisdom.

    When Perez he reintroduced her to the modern world, he also reworked her reason to leave the island.
    Right. But it's not a well-known reason that everyone in world knows and believes the only possible reason. So a new writer comes along and reworks her reason to leave again. Because whatever the new reason, it's not set in stone (through decades of repetition in mass media) the way Krypton exploding or Bruce's parents being killed is. You say editorial should mandate consistence - sure. But they don't for many other heroes, either. And they really aren't likely to until they think that there's basically one reason/motivation that will be widely accepted/embraced.

    And for me her motivation is very important, because why she leaves informs the actions that she takes once she enters this world. They also determine a lot about what kind of person she is. Is she adventurous because she wants to see the wider world, and motivated by that curiosity and sense of exploration? Or is she self-sacrificing for leaving a home that she loves and would rather stay in order to achieve a greater good? Pious for following the instruction of one of her gods? Yes, a person has many personality traits, but which ones are most powerful/dominating in the character?

    I do agree a consistent supporting character roster and town would help a lot. I love those. Some books manage to sell well without them, but I love a good supporting cast. I often drop a book when they change locales for that reason (Superboy, I quit when he went to Cadmus). I assume they usually do that in response to already declining sales, though. But I've never actually checked to be sure. And continuing supporting cast definitely does add to accessibility.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 06-22-2019 at 06:10 PM.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    While I like that (hate the Zeus-daddy), that's not her origin as a hero, just her birth. It's not how she got "here" (regular world). Her origin as a hero has to be tied to when and why she decided to become a hero/come to outside world. If her reason was curiosity/exploration, then she will act differently that she will if her reason is to save mankind for ending all war (by killing Area) or to fight evil nazis and win a war or to be an ambassador, spreading Amazonian values/wisdom.

    Right. But it's not a well-known reason that everyone in world knows and believes the only possible reason. So a new writer comes along and reworks her reason to leave again. Because whatever the new reason, it's not set in stone (through decades of repetition in mass media) the way Krypton exploding or Bruce's parents being killed is. You say editorial should mandate consistence - sure. But they don't for many other heroes, either. And they really aren't likely to until they think that there's basically one reason/motivation that will be widely accepted/embraced.

    And for me her motivation is very important, because why she leaves informs the actions that she takes once she enters this world. They also determine a lot about what kind of person she is. Is she adventurous because she wants to see the wider world, and motivated by that curiosity and sense of exploration? Or is she self-sacrificing for leaving a home that she loves and would rather stay in order to achieve a greater good? Pious for following the instruction of one of her gods? Yes, a person has many personality traits, but which ones are most powerful/dominating in the character?
    But her reason to leave was pretty much the same for decades in and outside comics. And still is. She met Steve and decided to go to the outside world to fight evil and share the amazon philosophy with the world. Don't forget what i said about editors. If WW lacks consistency is because of that. There is nobody at DC caring about her mythos the way they care about batman and superman. Even after her film hit it big. Do you find that to be a normal attitude? Because i don't.

  13. #133
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    But her reason to leave was pretty much the same for decades in and outside comics. And still is. She met Steve and decided to go to the outside world to fight evil and share the amazon philosophy with the world.
    Except I've never been exposed to that in main stream media. Not once. The only non-movie origin I've seen for her is the tv show (WW II again, for first season) and the Justice League cartoon. Yes, she met Steve. But amazon philosophy was completely different in different versions, and she didn't really care that much about it in the show. In the movie, she thought killing Ares would solve the problem and that, not sharing philosophy, was her goal. Her personality and motivations are different in all of these.
    Even after her film hit it big. Do you find that to be a normal attitude? Because i don't.
    Yes, I do find it normal. Disappointing, but normal. Most characters don't have that much care about mythos outside of original origin, and her original origin (leaving to fight nazis) isn't applicable anymore. Even motives for those those they don't always care about (see Barry and Hal). Movies (and shows) sometimes inform comics - Clark started working at the DP again (part of the time), because of the movie, as I understand it. But the origin in her movie is completely inapplicable to the current comic book run because it is set so far in the past.

    Should editorial care about a consistent mythos - sure. But I think the reason they don't care is because she's doesn't have a foundation that is set in stone beyond "came from Amazon island, mother Hippolyta, possess super strength." It's not a problem that started happening now or even twenty years ago. Until they have a version/vision that is widely shared and agreed upon by fans (resulting in sales), they aren't going to stick to it. They don't have they because they've never had that (so there was never one reason to leave or driving motivation everyone agreed on over lots of decades in wider media). Terrible loop.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 06-22-2019 at 06:34 PM.

  14. #134
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    The Invisible Plane is about as redundant to the WW mythos in terms of her powers as her bracelets are considering that she's already invulnerable.

    If we can have both her invulnerability and her bracelets we can have the plane and her power of flight as well.
    She isn't bulletproof though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Except I've never been exposed to that in main stream media. Not once. The only non-movie origin I've seen for her is the tv show (WW II again, for first season) and the Justice League cartoon. Yes, she met Steve. But amazon philosophy was completely different in different versions, and she didn't really care that much about it in the show. In the movie, she thought killing Ares would solve the problem and that, not sharing philosophy, was her goal. Her personality and motivations are different in all of these.
    Yes, I do find it normal. Disappointing, but normal. Most characters don't have that much care about mythos outside of original origin, and her original origin (leaving to fight nazis) isn't applicable anymore. Even motives for those those they don't always care about (see Barry and Hal). Movies (and shows) sometimes inform comics - Clark started working at the DP again (part of the time), because of the movie, as I understand it. But the origin in her movie is completely inapplicable to the current comic book run because it is set so far in the past.

    Should editorial care about a consistent mythos - sure. But I think the reason they don't care is because she's doesn't have a foundation that is set in stone beyond "came from Amazon island, mother Hippolyta, possess super strength." It's not a problem that started happening now or even twenty years ago. Until they have a version/vision that is widely shared and agreed upon by fans (resulting in sales), they aren't going to stick to it. They don't have they because they've never had that (so there was never one reason to leave or driving motivation everyone agreed on over lots of decades in wider media). Terrible loop.
    When WWII was over. Her reason to leave the island wasn't changed that much. She left the island to fight evil in the comics of the 50s and onwards. The same reason to leave in all the 60s, 70s and 80s cartoon shows. And the same reason to leave in the JL cartoon from the 2000s. In the modern comics, Perez did the same. He explained how and why she left the island. And that was cannon for almost 30 years. It was people at the top in DC that wanted to change it. At the end of the day, with some minor changes. WW has been leaving the island for the same goals. Fighting evil, fighting for peace and justice for everybody. That's why she left in Lynda Carter show (season 2 and onwards), The Super Friends, JL cartoon, her animated film. Her 2017 film. And that's why she left in all comics of the last 4 decades.

    The problem here is that she doesn't have a consistent cast that is used in every run. A established city. Her rogue gallery suffers from lack of use, etc. The principles of her character are very clear. But more often than not, heads at DC don't care about it. And this is crucial. We can't expect consistency to happen out of nowhere. It's DC the one that has to make it happen. There was no need to change her origin in 2011. When the previous one and her motive to leave the island already had decades of publication in comics and was also present in cartoons and animated movies. DC decided to put an end to decades of established bases just because.
    Last edited by wonderland789; 06-22-2019 at 06:56 PM.

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