Why do so many writers suck at writing WW

[AmiMizuno]

Diana has had the plane even if she flies. Especially when she is having multiple people to help. So I can’t see what would be wrong with her having it. Diana is all about helping people. Going back to a version of one of the jets. Why not instead of it being a jet rather it can be anything Diana can create? An invisible object Diana can use. Or give the jet to Steve.

I mean I feel there a reason more people want the jet more than the dome. I rather it be given to Steve.

[DrNewGod]

Superman and the others never had a jet, and Wonder Woman did. Which is why some WW fans want the jet back in her mythos but don't demand anything for the other characters you mentioned. Seems simple enough. And if she was always meant to have flight, I imagine Marston would have given it to her.

The pro-jet people, at least in this thread, seem a little more willing to find a middle ground to satisfy everyone than the pro-flight only people. As a narrative, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Diana being flightless early on so she can use the Invisible Plane and show off Amazon tech that rivals the tech of other corners of the DCU, and getting flight later. Absolutely none. It reflects her actual publication history. With this, the plane and its place in her history makes sense even if it doesn't get active use in the present, which gives a satisfying status quo for everyone (or else it should).

This is what happens when you keep rebooting her. Things that used to have simple explanations no longer do so, for little gain. Wonder Woman's canon not having room for all of her stuff at any given time is why her franchise is such a shallow, contradictory mess. All her stuff gets dumped to be replaced by a new supporting cast, history, and lore, before that too is dumped. Rinse, lather, repeat. Rebooting, especially the kind of reboots from COIE onward, never do DC any good in the long run, her (among their major characters) in particular.

Well said. What gets me is the militancy of the anti-jet crowd. I see is in the Wally West-Flash proponents. For all the claims of Silver Age clinging, it seems the to be the Post-Crisis fans that most vehemently scream "No! My Version Or Nothing!"

[Agent Z]

Well said. What gets me is the militancy of the anti-jet crowd. I see is in the Wally West-Flash proponents. For all the claims of Silver Age clinging, it seems the to be the Post-Crisis fans that most vehemently scream "No! My Version Or Nothing!"

I've been in this argument for years and have yet to see a single justification for the jet that doesn't boil down to "she had it when Marston was writing her".

The anti-jet crowd don't feel the need for a "middle ground" because the jet as far as we can see accomplishes nothing narratively. It isn't like the past decades of mediocre or bad stories would have been improved if only she had an invisible jet.

[kjn]

I've been in this argument for years and have yet to see a single justification for the jet that doesn't boil down to "she had it when Marston was writing her".

The anti-jet crowd don't feel the need for a "middle ground" because the jet as far as we can see accomplishes nothing narratively. It isn't like the past decades of mediocre or bad stories would have been improved if only she had an invisible jet.

Does Diana need the jet? Not necessarily, it depends on the story.

But the invisible plane is a recognised and established part of Wonder Woman's iconography. Wonder Woman needs the invisible plane not because it provides her with something, but because it is expected of her to have it. Just as it is expected that Mad Max will get a malfunctioning sawed-off shotgun.

Rucka managed a great version of the invisible plane in Rebirth, when it was introduced and then literally disappeared. Wilson makes a fun nod to it in her run with Aphrodite's invisible swan. The invisible plane might not be that useful for Diana by herself, but if she is not alone or want the ability to chill a bit during transfer, it sure is nice to have around.

No-one's asking for the invisible plane to be included in every story, or that Diana should give up flight here. But the invisible plane is one of those quirky things that has come out of her history and is strongly associated with her since the beginning, even in the general public.

[Koriand'r]

Well said. What gets me is the militancy of the anti-jet crowd. I see is in the Wally West-Flash proponents. For all the claims of Silver Age clinging, it seems the to be the Post-Crisis fans that most vehemently scream "No! My Version Or Nothing!"

Many don't understand the degree of how lame gliding on air currents was or the feelings of joy and affirmation when Perez gave her flight. Suddenly she was like she always should have been and we don't want to go backwards from there.

[SiegePerilous02]

Well said. What gets me is the militancy of the anti-jet crowd. I see is in the Wally West-Flash proponents. For all the claims of Silver Age clinging, it seems the to be the Post-Crisis fans that most vehemently scream "No! My Version Or Nothing!"

I don't if they do it the most, but they're definitely just as bad. At least on this forum. It boils down to "nostalgia vs. nostalgia"

Though I'd say the Wally fans, at least from Flashpoint and beyond, are pretty justified.

I've been in this argument for years and have yet to see a single justification for the jet that doesn't boil down to "she had it when Marston was writing her".

That's all the justification needed, especially since most aren't advocating for removing the flight once she receives it. People like the Marston run and the stuff in it and want to see it represented, and it's not like we need it to be returned to that status quo in the present. Think Morrison's "it all happened, or as much as possible" approach to Batman, even the silly stuff. It being so difficult with her is one of the many reasons her property is a mess.

This is superhero comics. They're silly stuff for children at their roots. We're not, and never have been, dealing with some master class Tolkien level world building here, and that's probably for the best, because such a thing would be too rigid for properties meant to be handled for various creators and meant to go on indefinitely. And on the flip side, the only justification we get for getting rid of it is "Perez got rid of it because she needs to fly like Superman, always."

The anti-jet crowd don't feel the need for a "middle ground" because the jet as far as we can see accomplishes nothing narratively. It isn't like the past decades of mediocre or bad stories would have been improved if only she had an invisible jet.

It doesn't have a narrative importance because Post-Crisis took said usefulness away and re-wrote the history to exclude it. The past decade of mediocre stories haven't really been better for its absence, or other the absence of other stuff, have they?

No-one's asking for the invisible plane to be included in every story, or that Diana should give up flight here. But the invisible plane is one of those quirky things that has come out of her history and is strongly associated with her since the beginning, even in the general public.

Yes, if it's strongly associated with her, it makes no sense to exclude it, even if it doesn't need to appear in every story.

Many don't understand the degree of how lame gliding on air currents was or the feelings of joy and affirmation when Perez gave her flight. Suddenly she was like she always should have been and we don't want to go backwards from there.

The plane doesn't mean a return to the gliding on air currents thing. Nobody here has asked for that.

If she needs the plane, she cannot fly. The most we are asking is that she not fly for a few years early on, and then gain the power (and keep it). Full blown flight, not gliding on air currents, and keep the plane in reserve. I really don't get this "flight from the word go or it is trash" mentality. is it that important that we cannot shape a WW lore that may satisfy a wider number of people?

[kjn]

To take another tack on it, the invisible plane is Diana's bicycle. I can run nearly as fast as I can bike, but it requires a lot less exertion with the bike to hold 20–25 kph. I can carry 30 kilos for extended periods, but I can move it a lot easier if it's on the bike.

[Koriand'r]

I don't if they do it the most, but they're definitely just as bad. At least on this forum. It boils down to "nostalgia vs. nostalgia"

Though I'd say the Wally fans, at least from Flashpoint and beyond, are pretty justified.




That's all the justification needed, especially since most aren't advocating for removing the flight once she receives it. People like the Marston run and the stuff in it and want to see it represented, and it's not like we need it to be returned to that status quo in the present. Think Morrison's "it all happened, or as much as possible" approach to Batman, even the silly stuff. It being so difficult with her is one of the many reasons her property is a mess.

This is superhero comics. They're silly stuff for children at their roots. We're not, and never have been, dealing with some master class Tolkien level world building here, and that's probably for the best, because such a thing would be too rigid for properties meant to be handled for various creators and meant to go on indefinitely. And on the flip side, the only justification we get for getting rid of it is "Perez got rid of it because she needs to fly like Superman, always."



It doesn't have a narrative importance because Post-Crisis took said usefulness away and re-wrote the history to exclude it. The past decade of mediocre stories haven't really been better for its absence, or other the absence of other stuff, have they?




Yes, if it's strongly associated with her, it makes no sense to exclude it, even if it doesn't need to appear in every story.



The plane doesn't mean a return to the gliding on air currents thing. Nobody here has asked for that.

If she needs the plane, she cannot fly. The most we are asking is that she not fly for a few years early on, and then gain the power (and keep it). Full blown flight, not gliding on air currents, and keep the plane in reserve. I really don't get this "flight from the word go or it is trash" mentality. is it that important that we cannot shape a WW lore that may satisfy a wider number of people?

That exact same thing happened in JMS' Odyssey and it's one of the most maligned WW stories ever.

[SiegePerilous02]

That exact same thing happened in JMS' Odyssey and it's one of the most maligned WW stories ever.

And that was hardly the reason it was maligned, or far from the only reason.

Marston didn't have her fly and intended for her to use the jet. She got gradual power ups afterward. That's her actual history. We're not asking for something that didn't actually happen at the hands of her actual creators, so I really don't see why this is getting such resistance. Especially since NOBODY here is asking for her to lose the power of flight in present day stories, so the resistance seems really disproportionate and needlessly exclusive of parts of her lore.

[Agent Z]

And that was hardly the reason it was maligned, or far from the only reason.

Marston didn't have her fly and intended for her to use the jet. She got gradual power ups afterward. That's her actual history. We're not asking for something that didn't actually happen at the hands of her actual creators, so I really don't see why this is getting such resistance. Especially since NOBODY here is asking for her to lose the power of flight in present day stories, so the resistance seems really disproportionate and needlessly exclusive of parts of her lore.

Quite a number of people have asked for her flight to be removed. Pinsir being one of them.

[The I.A.D.C.]

Marston didn't have her fly and intended for her to use the jet. She got gradual power ups afterward. That's her actual history. We're not asking for something that didn't actually happen at the hands of her actual creators, so I really don't see why this is getting such resistance. Especially since NOBODY here is asking for her to lose the power of flight in present day stories, so the resistance seems really disproportionate and needlessly exclusive of parts of her lore.

Yes. The plane could be part of her arsenal. She may not need it for every story and adventure like she did back in the Pre-Crisis days, but there may be times where it would come in handy. It's just fun, but God forbid we read superhero comic books for fun. :P I agree with the sentiment that she has been rebooted and retooled so many times that trying to mesh her history together to form some kind of cohesive narrative is almost impossible. One of the reasons you can do that with Batman and, to a lesser extent, Superman is because they are essentially still the characters that showed up back in 1938 and '39. With WW you have Marston's original creation, Denny O'Neil's female Bond of the late '60s, and then Perez's Post-Crisis creation. I don't think Marston ever intended for her to be a literal goddess, but over the years in the never-ending attempts to try and make her whatever DC considers to be "cool" she's been powered up to Superman levels and now she's the literal daughter of Zeus. But the thing is WW has always been cool, just because she's a different kind of super hero. Superman will beat you in submission. Batman will scare you into surrendering, but WW will try to reason with you first before she kicks your ass. And, after she's beat you down, she will reach down and pick you up. For some reason that doesn't translate well to the mainstream comic audience so DC has spent the last decade trying to impose other characters' "cool factors" onto her and you end up with a blood-thirsty bulletproof demigoddess waving around a sword and shield because it looks "cooler" than a lasso and bracelets. Whatever.

[theoneandonly]

I see no reason for her to have been incapable of flight for the plane/jet to be viable. the Amazons or Diana could have developed the plane out of intellectual curiosity rather than necessity or it may have been a gift from another culture and so it would be used according to Diana's whim for travelling on special occasions like attending Superman's birthday celebration or some other purpose like using it in war games at Steve's request etc. thus it's not at all necessary for her to have lacked the ability of flight to make the plane a viable option.

[DrNewGod]

Many don't understand the degree of how lame gliding on air currents was or the feelings of joy and affirmation when Perez gave her flight. Suddenly she was like she always should have been and we don't want to go backwards from there.

I never said she shouldn't fly.

As for "going backwards" I would submit that having the Amazons regressed from a mystically/scientifically advanced civilization to the pawns of their gods, and frozen in a pre-iron age state was a step further back than carving a little kph and control off Diana's aerobatics could ever be.

[SiegePerilous02]

Quite a number of people have asked for her flight to be removed. Pinsir being one of them.

Honestly, considering the name of Pinsir's blog and the wide spectrum of stories they recommend in their signature, I think they know what they are doing and just taking the piss a bit

Yes. The plane could be part of her arsenal. She may not need it for every story and adventure like she did back in the Pre-Crisis days, but there may be times where it would come in handy. It's just fun, but God forbid we read superhero comic books for fun. :P I agree with the sentiment that she has been rebooted and retooled so many times that trying to mesh her history together to form some kind of cohesive narrative is almost impossible. One of the reasons you can do that with Batman and, to a lesser extent, Superman is because they are essentially still the characters that showed up back in 1938 and '39. With WW you have Marston's original creation, Denny O'Neil's female Bond of the late '60s, and then Perez's Post-Crisis creation. I don't think Marston ever intended for her to be a literal goddess, but over the years in the never-ending attempts to try and make her whatever DC considers to be "cool" she's been powered up to Superman levels and now she's the literal daughter of Zeus. But the thing is WW has always been cool, just because she's a different kind of super hero. Superman will beat you in submission. Batman will scare you into surrendering, but WW will try to reason with you first before she kicks your ass. And, after she's beat you down, she will reach down and pick you up. For some reason that doesn't translate well to the mainstream comic audience so DC has spent the last decade trying to impose other characters' "cool factors" onto her and you end up with a blood-thirsty bulletproof demigoddess waving around a sword and shield because it looks "cooler" than a lasso and bracelets. Whatever.

Agreed. Superman isn't much better as far as continuity goes, but he definitely fares better than her.

I never said she shouldn't fly.

As for "going backwards" I would submit that having the Amazons regressed from a mystically/scientifically advanced civilization to the pawns of their gods, and frozen in a pre-iron age state was a step further back than carving a little kph and control off Diana's aerobatics could ever be.

Yep. And the lack of flight wouldn't even be permanent anyway

I envision it as something similar to Morrison's New 52 Superman, which started Clark at Golden Age levels and transitioned to Silver Age levels. He was weaker and could only leap tall bounds, not fly at first. So if we take a similar approach, Diana wouldn't fly for the early parts and get some use out of the plane (which also benefits the Amazons immensely, because their tech is showing up everything Man's World has to offer, including the Bat Plane!). Then she'd fly later. And then we'd have a simple, satisfying reason for the plane to exist as part of her lore even if it doesn't need to be constantly used.

Both sides get what they want.

[Angleman70]

Many don't understand the degree of how lame gliding on air currents was or the feelings of joy and affirmation when Perez gave her flight. Suddenly she was like she always should have been and we don't want to go backwards from there.

Thank You! That is what I’ve been trying to say! If you let writers use the plane, then you might as well go back to pre-crisis powerless Diana!