Well yes, there is the vat scene with Jack's character in BATMAN. I remembered that after posting, but didn't want to edit it in, because I felt like I made the point that he initiates the origin of Batman rather than the other way around. And it seems like Joker will initiate a state of affairs in this movie that leads to Batman appearing. So it's on a similar track--and Batman-ish enough for folks to accept it. We've had GOTHAM and PENNYWORTH--so JOKER isn't really going very far out in left field from those.

The more important thing to me is that this movie can open up the range of movies coming from DC. I've always argued that DC offered everything in its 9 decades of history--it goes from absolute giddy goofball humour to stark raving terror. Comic books aren't limited to telling only one kind of story. Comic books can tell every kind of story imagineable. So when we think of a comic book movie, we shouldn't think of only one kind of movie with predictable visuals and plots.

Now DC is using one of its most well-known properties to do that. And maybe that's the only way. ROAD TO PERDITION, A HISTORY OF VIOLENCE, THE LOSERS and THE KITCHEN were never big enough to open that door. But hopefully JOKER will. And maybe that will lead to DC trying to do more innovative movies with all its properties.