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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Completely disagree. It was Williamson that made me really love Wallace as a character. The Christmas date issue was one of my favorites of Williamson's run. I just want Wallace to be a regular in the book again.
    Agreed, Williamson was the one who made the character really work. It's a huge shame that Teen Titans is keeping Kid Flash from being a regular cast member in The Flash.

    It's weird that the kid-sidekick is such a widely recognised facet of the super-hero genre, but not a single DC comic uses it. Part of what made the first year of Williamson's run feel so fresh was that Kid Flash was practically the co-star. I don't think he needs to be in every story, but he enriches the book when he's around, even when he's not in costume.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    First 50? I wouldn't say that. He wrote him pretty boringly as the usual delinquent teen with attitude when he first popped up, when he got his powers and became Kid Flash them were some bright spots but he was mainly either angsty or uninteresting. How many times can we fall back on the "you lied to me!? Wahhh!!" trope? He is consistently the one character that's never gets over that. Williamson's run on the Flash has been great but he has easily had the least compelling take on Wallace out of the main writers to take on the character.
    You're conflating some things, namely the "delinquent phase" (which I feel is always exaggerated, in length, appropriateness, and/or severity whenever Wallace comes into the conversation), as that happened only during his earliest New 52 appearances, which Joshua Williamson did not write (Williamson only began writing Flash when Rebirth began). Even during New 52, that wasn't a big part of his character (and what was there was justified by circumstances), because most of Wally/Wallace's use then was spent having him bond with Barry (baseball game moment was nice), having him come to admire The Flash, and seeing him take up an interest in engineering/automotive engineering (which hasn't been brought up since Rebirth, unfortunately, since he's been too busy being Kid Flash and dealing with Superhero/Supervillain drama).

    Also, I definitely feel you're overplaying Wallace's negativity towards Barry, to the point where you're summing it up as "whiny", and underplaying why he should be and was justified for having that negativity towards Barry (since Barry's lack of forthcoming-ness was a repeat offense, even when Wallace tries to give Barry another chance).

    Lastly, while it might not have been your cup of tea, whenever Williamson does use Kid Flash/Wallace, I've always loved it. I still cite the moment when Kid Flash learns his villainous Uncle Daniel, who had managed to be a surprising recurrent during his young life before he went to prison and got his powers, was actually his father, who is now dead, to be a superb emotional moment for the character. That was their first falling-out, and was also when Flash reveals his identity; but too little too late. That was beautiful, in my opinion. My only real problem with Williamson writing Wallace has always been that he wouldn't write him on a consistent basis throughout each passing arc; that is, he would often be Put on a Bus whenever Williamson wanted Barry alone. Part of it may have been/may be outward forces (Teen Titans/Deathstroke), while other parts may be deliberate writing choices. But that's about it; when Williamson does write Wallace, it tends to be awesome, fun, or wonderfully emotional.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    How would folks here do the character, if they had a chance to reboot him? I feel like his origins are so tangled up. Wish he'd gotten a fresh start when they did the retcons (timing issues, etc.). I've only read a little with him. Read his first issue and quite annoyed that his mother played so little role, even in his thoughts. Did we ever even learn the woman's name or if she was for sure dead? I feel like mothers get the short end of the stick when it comes to shaping or motivating or playing in part in a hero's life compared to fathers. It's been a while since I read it, though. Maybe I'm misremembering and he did care about her. I would definitely have more about his mom, relationship with that custodial parent, etc. And give the woman a name.

    And, on the other hand, without a full retcon, where would you take him now?
    I wouldn't reboot him, personally, as I feel Wallace's origin isn't complicated (or at least not more so than I'm trained to deal with as general fan of comic books and fictional media).

    I do agree that mothers and mother-figures tend to be on the backburner when it comes to what motivates and informs a character's life, even is they have one who is actively in their life (Aunt Iris in Wallace's case). This is especially the case when it comes to male heroes/heroic protagonists. Not to downplay the importance of male figure (be it father or whatever) in a person's life. And not to say there are no exceptions or anything. But it is a noted trend in fiction.

    With that in mind, what I would like would be some time taken to explore Wallace's past. Have him inquire and search for information about his mother, first with Aunt Iris and then beyond. Heck, turn it into a bonding subplot between the two where they work together to find out what they can.

    And while a little dallying from the point, I'd also like more concrete showcasing, via flashbacks, about Wallace's relationship with Daniel. (We did get some of it in the above-mentioned emotional reveal, but not much or enough.)

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Completely disagree. It was Williamson that made me really love Wallace as a character. The Christmas date issue was one of my favorites of Williamson's run. I just want Wallace to be a regular in the book again.
    The bold is basically what I want, too.

    And I concur with the Christmas date issue being ultra sweet.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    I wouldn't reboot him, personally, as I feel Wallace's origin isn't complicated (or at least not more so than I'm trained to deal with as general fan of comic books and fictional media).

    I do agree that mothers and mother-figures tend to be on the backburner when it comes to what motivates and informs a character's life, even is they have one who is actively in their life (Aunt Iris in Wallace's case). This is especially the case when it comes to male heroes/heroic protagonists. Not to downplay the importance of male figure (be it father or whatever) in a person's life. And not to say there are no exceptions or anything. But it is a noted trend in fiction.

    With that in mind, what I would like would be some time taken to explore Wallace's past. Have him inquire and search for information about his mother, first with Aunt Iris and then beyond. Heck, turn it into a bonding subplot between the two where they work together to find out what they can.

    And while a little dallying from the point, I'd also like more concrete showcasing, via flashbacks, about Wallace's relationship with Daniel. (We did get some of it in the above-mentioned emotional reveal, but not much or enough.)
    I've very down with this. Anything to see him bonding with Iris and get a little break from the father figure issues.
    Last edited by Ironmonk; 06-23-2019 at 12:35 PM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    My only real problem with Williamson writing Wallace has always been that he wouldn't write him on a consistent basis throughout each passing arc; that is, he would often be Put on a Bus whenever Williamson wanted Barry alone. Part of it may have been/may be outward forces (Teen Titans/Deathstroke), while other parts may be deliberate writing choices. But that's about it; when Williamson does write Wallace, it tends to be awesome, fun, or wonderfully emotional.
    Williamson has said that he wanted to use Wallace and Wally more, but he can't always do so when they're in other books.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    and seeing him take up an interest in engineering/automotive engineering (which hasn't been brought up since Rebirth, unfortunately, since he's been too busy being Kid Flash and dealing with Superhero/Supervillain drama).
    I agree n have no idea why...

    T.R Rebirth #6, #8, #28

    TT 6.jpg
    TT 8.2.jpg
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    They really started to remove it from his character once Glass took over and being written out of The Flash.
    Last edited by Grandmaster_J; 06-23-2019 at 06:43 PM.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grandmaster_J View Post
    I agree.

    T.R Rebirth #6, #8, #28

    TT 6.jpg
    TT 8.2.jpg
    TT 28.jpg

    They really started to remove it from his character once Glass took over and being written out of The Flash.
    A few more. Flash #34 n #48, Guest Appearance in Titans #16

    Flash 34.jpg
    RCO006.jpg
    Titans 16.jpg

    Time to bring moments like these back.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironmonk View Post
    I've very down with this. Anything to see him bonding with Iris and get a little break from the father figure issues.
    Yeah, that would be cool. It would just make for a fun story all around, I feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Williamson has said that he wanted to use Wallace and Wally more, but he can't always do so when they're in other books.
    That's not surprising to hear. It is still disappointing though. And it's not always a complicated deal-breaker to use him in both. Just to use one recent example, Damian was used in Detective Comics for their Arkham Knight story arc with nothing more than a handwave for why Damian's away from his team, all without needing him to be absent in the Teen Titans book itself. I know it technically creates an unanswerable question, but there's no serious plot hole and it is arguably worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grandmaster_J View Post
    I agree n have no idea why...

    T.R Rebirth #6, #8, #28

    TT 6.jpg
    TT 8.2.jpg
    TT 28.jpg

    They really started to remove it from his character once Glass took over and being written out of The Flash.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grandmaster_J View Post
    A few more. Flash #34 n #48, Guest Appearance in Titans #16

    Flash 34.jpg
    RCO006.jpg
    Titans 16.jpg

    Time to bring moments like these back.
    Good eye! Most of these had slipped my mind, even.

    So it's just super recently, since Glass took over Teen Titans, that Wallace's mechanical and automotive prowess hasn't been referenced?
    Last edited by J. D. Guy; 06-23-2019 at 06:54 PM.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post

    Good eye! Most of these had slipped my mind, even.

    So it's just super recently, since Glass took over Teen Titans, that Wallace's mechanical and automotive prowess hasn't been referenced?
    Yep pretty much. There was like a subtle call back to it in issue 29 during his conversation with Roundhouse but other than that just lost. That could easily be fixed by maybe a panel or two of him in the room where all the vehicles are stored, or if we ever find out what they use for transportation. They just appear in one place to the next without ever knowing what got them there.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grandmaster_J View Post
    Yep pretty much. There was like a subtle call back to it in issue 29 during his conversation with Roundhouse but other than that just lost. That could easily be fixed by maybe a panel or two of him in the room where all the vehicles are stored, or if we ever find out what they use for transportation. They just appear in one place to the next without ever knowing what got them there.
    You'd think that would be apart of Kid Flash and Roundhouse's dynamic, one of the reasons they became such good friends. But if so, it's never really made plain. Still hope this trait of Wallace's will be referenced again soon. Don't want it slipping through the characterization cracks.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    You're conflating some things, namely the "delinquent phase" (which I feel is always exaggerated, in length, appropriateness, and/or severity whenever Wallace comes into the conversation), as that happened only during his earliest New 52 appearances, which Joshua Williamson did not write (Williamson only began writing Flash when Rebirth began). Even during New 52, that wasn't a big part of his character (and what was there was justified by circumstances), because most of Wally/Wallace's use then was spent having him bond with Barry (baseball game moment was nice), having him come to admire The Flash, and seeing him take up an interest in engineering/automotive engineering (which hasn't been brought up since Rebirth, unfortunately, since he's been too busy being Kid Flash and dealing with Superhero/Supervillain drama).

    Also, I definitely feel you're overplaying Wallace's negativity towards Barry, to the point where you're summing it up as "whiny", and underplaying why he should be and was justified for having that negativity towards Barry (since Barry's lack of forthcoming-ness was a repeat offense, even when Wallace tries to give Barry another chance).

    Lastly, while it might not have been your cup of tea, whenever Williamson does use Kid Flash/Wallace, I've always loved it. I still cite the moment when Kid Flash learns his villainous Uncle Daniel, who had managed to be a surprising recurrent during his young life before he went to prison and got his powers, was actually his father, who is now dead, to be a superb emotional moment for the character. That was their first falling-out, and was also when Flash reveals his identity; but too little too late. That was beautiful, in my opinion. My only real problem with Williamson writing Wallace has always been that he wouldn't write him on a consistent basis throughout each passing arc; that is, he would often be Put on a Bus whenever Williamson wanted Barry alone. Part of it may have been/may be outward forces (Teen Titans/Deathstroke), while other parts may be deliberate writing choices. But that's about it; when Williamson does write Wallace, it tends to be awesome, fun, or wonderfully emotional.
    I went back to read my books from Williamson's run that featured Wallace to make sure I was giving it a fair shake. Now, while I admit I was mixing the New 52 run with his run and I was harsh, i stand by that I don't think he was doing anything revolutionary or particularly great with Wallace (to be fair, no one has tho) and, furthur still, I maintain his take on him does come off angsty and obnoxious but I do have a different perspective on that critique now.

    Admittedly I didn't read the Christmas issue so maybe he does something interesting there but I not "overplaying" the negativity toward Barry, in fact my issue with it is how overblown he goes with it and consistently he goes to that well with Wallace. His best time with Wallace for sure was Lightning strike Twice, Wallace's use in the first 20 (more or less) were pretty solid but the moment he discovered Daniel was his father (which was done really well) it's been a constant return to the same "you lied"/trust over reaction. My issue with Williamson's take, I realize, isn't so much his take on Wallace in it's entirety but more so the trope of secrets or "lying" being the greatest most unforgivable sin. It is tired and, while can be done well, usually comes off hacky and obnoxious due to it often being used as an easy conflict for the protagonist because it is an inherently forgivable sin. It functions as a forgivable, relatable, flaw the hero can have that we, the audience, understand comes from a genuinely good place but for it to work the one who is mad at the protagonist almost always have to overract and be irrationally angry for it to be an actual conflict. It's a trope I am getting really tired of (which is why I fell off the CWverse stuff after a while) and unfortunately that tends to be a well he's returned to too many times for my taste in regards to Wallace in his run. When the Dad reveal was dealt with, it was his dad's death (which was an understandable and natural progression) but when that was was square it was the identity thing (which was a consistent conflict for conflict sake issue that I did not care for) and when that was done it was The Flashpoint/Flash War; although, in that whole arc almost EVERYONE was acting out of character to overblow the conflict. Even still, after that there was an issue about not telling them about Wally after he just found out. One's an incident, two's coincidence, three-four-five's a pattern, and one I don't care to constantly repeat. If he left it at the Dad issue or the identity issue I'd probably not care but after that point it wasn't interesting, it doesn't add anything to the character and it just came off as unnecessary conflict for conflict sake. In spite of that, I don't think Williamson is a terrible writer but I have come to realize that his shortcomings tend to come out when he's writing against Barry (if that makes sense) and Wallace tends to be the character where it's the most noticeable.

    Now do I think Williamson would ruin Wallace if he came into contact with him? Not anymore, he will probably do a better job once they reconcile. Do I still prefer Wallace on Teen Titans and Deathstroke? Yes, aside from Williamson being willing/able to play with Wallace's speedforce connection more, I have had a more consistently fun time reading him on other titles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Williamson has said that he wanted to use Wallace and Wally more, but he can't always do so when they're in other books.
    This may be where my issues stem from, one of my smaller issues is that I would've liked to see Wallace and Wally play off each other more. Perhaps if he had a chance to use them I would take to his iteration of Wallace more favorably.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 06-24-2019 at 09:37 PM.
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    I went back to read my books from Williamson's run that featured Wallace to make sure I was giving it a fair shake. Now, while I admit I was mixing the New 52 run with his run and I was harsh, i stand by that I don't think he was doing anything revolutionary or particularly great with Wallace (to be fair, no one has tho) and, furthur still, I maintain his take on him does come off angsty and obnoxious but I do have a different perspective on that critique now.

    Admittedly I didn't read the Christmas issue so maybe he does something interesting there but I not "overplaying" the negativity toward Barry, in fact my issue with it is how overblown he goes with it and consistently he goes to that well with Wallace. His best time with Wallace for sure was Lightning strike Twice, Wallace's use in the first 20 (more or less) were pretty solid but the moment he discovered Daniel was his father (which was done really well) it's been a constant return to the same "you lied"/trust over reaction. My issue with Williamson's take, I realize, isn't so much his take on Wallace in it's entirety but more so the trope of secrets or "lying" being the greatest most unforgivable sin. It is tired and, while can be done well, usually comes off hacky and obnoxious due to it often being used as an easy conflict for the protagonist because it is an inherently forgivable sin. It functions as a forgivable, relatable, flaw the hero can have that we, the audience, understand comes from a genuinely good place but for it to work the one who is mad at the protagonist almost always have to overract and be irrationally angry for it to be an actual conflict. It's a trope I am getting really tired of (which is why I fell off the CWverse stuff after a while) and unfortunately that tends to be a well he's returned to too many times for my taste in regards to Wallace in his run. When the Dad reveal was dealt with, it was his dad's death (which was an understandable and natural progression) but when that was was square it was the identity thing (which was a consistent conflict for conflict sake issue that I did not care for) and when that was done it was The Flashpoint/Flash War; although, in that whole arc almost EVERYONE was acting out of character to overblow the conflict. Even still, after that there was an issue about not telling them about Wally after he just found out. One's an incident, two's coincidence, three-four-five's a pattern, and one I don't care to constantly repeat. If he left it at the Dad issue or the identity issue I'd probably not care but after that point it wasn't interesting, it doesn't add anything to the character and it just came off as unnecessary conflict for conflict sake. In spite of that, I don't think Williamson is a terrible writer but I have come to realize that his shortcomings tend to come out when he's writing against Barry (if that makes sense) and Wallace tends to be the character where it's the most noticeable.

    Now do I think Williamson would ruin Wallace if he came into contact with him? Not anymore, he will probably do a better job once they reconcile. Do I still prefer Wallace on Teen Titans and Deathstroke? Yes, aside from Williamson being willing/able to play with Wallace's speedforce connection more, I have had a more consistently fun time reading him on other titles.
    Over all regarding Williamson's Wallace, I disagree with you, and in general with those who share similar feelings. My problem with the notion that Wallace was made "angsty and obnoxious" is that that notion downplays or outright ignores that Wallace had a right to feel as negatively toward Barry as he did (and does due to similar things repeating themselves regarding how Barry handles things in relation to others around him). I think this feeling that Wallace is overblowing things comes from those who sympathize with Barry to the degree that they cannot allow themselves to empathize with Wallace. I don't see Barry as any less of a hero for having negative tendencies that have negative consequences.

    But I can see this is going in circles, so I'll try and leave it at that.

  14. #59
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    I enjoyed the character much more in Teen Titans than in Flash. I don't think Williamson got a real good grasp on the character and he definitely came across as the 'angry young teen'.
    That said, I'm not a huge fan of the character at all. He seems kinda superfluous when there's Wally AND Bart back in the DCU.
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    Over all regarding Williamson's Wallace, I disagree with you, and in general with those who share similar feelings. My problem with the notion that Wallace was made "angsty and obnoxious" is that that notion downplays or outright ignores that Wallace had a right to feel as negatively toward Barry as he did (and does due to similar things repeating themselves regarding how Barry handles things in relation to others around him). I think this feeling that Wallace is overblowing things comes from those who sympathize with Barry to the degree that they cannot allow themselves to empathize with Wallace. I don't see Barry as any less of a hero for having negative tendencies that have negative consequences.

    But I can see this is going in circles, so I'll try and leave it at that.
    I can empathize with Wallace but there comes a point where it's not a matter empathy, it's a matter of maturity. The things regarding his father, I feel, made sense but outside of that it didn't feel natural, that's my issue. it's not that I particularely sympathize with Barry, it's the face that the conflict on all sides feels forced and convoluted. the trope is very CW and Williamson didn't do anything with it that elevates it, and since Wallace is usually the one being written against Barry, he's the one who gets the brunt of the negative character beats associated with it. you can't possibly tell me Wallace reacted rationally or justifiably in Flash War when Barry had to chase after Wally and Zoom.
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