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  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Yeah, that's supposed to be what distinguishes him from Norman.

    He's not nuts and he knows when to cut out instead of wasting his time fighting Spider-Man.

    I don't think writers could have used him as they have in the past few years if he was really all that crazy.
    Bear in mind that we mean "Crazy" in the comics sense of the term and we always need to be careful when applying and bandying that. To me I never got the sense that Roderick Kingsley's actions would be different if he was written as a madman since Norman in the Lee Ditko era and after resurrection behaved much the same way as he did. Roderick Kingsley's best stories still involve him fighting Spider-Man heck he got the serum so that he could get super strength. There's no point to that if he can't fight Spider-Man or doesn't engage in combat, and besides Kingpin already has the role of the powerful guy behind a desk thing.

    If Kingsley's so smart and he's rich then why is he is a supervillain? Remember that comic book "insanity" (no relation to actual insanity or realistic representations of mental illness) was invented and became a thing precisely to update the supervillain gimmicks once audiences became more sophisticated and started asking for better motivated characters.

    And besides he says stuff, in Hobgoblin Lives, that he does this for the thrill. Those aren't rational motivations.

    Norman for all his "craziness" is the richer, more powerful and the bigger villain, so either insanity isn't a detriment or a weakness for Norman, or that Kingsley is too full of himself. My pick is the latter.

    And again how does a fashion designer become enough of a chemist to improve Norman's formula? That always struck me as bizarre because it dilutes the unique nature of Norman's work and motif if any rando can DIY it, or any anonymous chemist can be hired to do it. What next Kingsley will recreate Dr. Erskine's super serum? And before anyone goes "If Celestial then..." about the MU, to me poor design is poor design. I feel the same way about Miles Warren and the Jackal somehow achieving human cloning on a ESU salary and using it to fulfill his perversions, but at least Jackal was a one-and-done villain who was intended as a joke and who Gerry Conway buried even more with the throw that he never cloned anybody.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 04-06-2019 at 05:44 PM.

  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Bear in mind that we mean "Crazy" in the comics sense of the term and we always need to be careful when applying and bandying that. To me I never got the sense that Roderick Kingsley's actions would be different if he was written as a madman since Norman in the Lee Ditko era and after resurrection behaved much the same way as he did. Roderick Kingsley's best stories still involve him fighting Spider-Man heck he got the serum so that he could get super strength. There's no point to that if he can't fight Spider-Man or doesn't engage in combat, and besides Kingpin already has the role of the powerful guy behind a desk thing.

    If Kingsley's so smart and he's rich then why is he is a supervillain? Remember that comic book "insanity" (no relation to actual insanity or realistic representations of mental illness) was invented and became a thing precisely to update the supervillain gimmicks once audiences became more sophisticated and started asking for better motivated characters.

    And besides he says stuff, in Hobgoblin Lives, that he does this for the thrill. Those aren't rational motivations.

    Norman for all his "craziness" is the richer, more powerful and the bigger villain, so either insanity isn't a detriment or a weakness for Norman, or that Kingsley is too full of himself. My pick is the latter.

    And again how does a fashion designer become enough of a chemist to improve Norman's formula? That always struck me as bizarre because it dilutes the unique nature of Norman's work and motif if any rando can DIY it, or any anonymous chemist can be hired to do it. What next Kingsley will recreate Dr. Erskine's super serum? And before anyone goes "If Celestial then..." about the MU, to me poor design is poor design. I feel the same way about Miles Warren and the Jackal somehow achieving human cloning on a ESU salary and using it to fulfill his perversions, but at least Jackal was a one-and-done villain who was intended as a joke and who Gerry Conway buried even more with the throw that he never cloned anybody.
    Kingsley is so smart because he's not a super villain. He's a businessman who caters to individuals with large quantities of disposable income and little financial sense. The costume is marketing. That's what is so great about him. He exploited Osborn's brand and made it more profitable. Meanwhile, Norman continues to gain and quickly lose power; not to mention his face.
    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    I thought I couldn't love Steve Rogers any more than I already do, but here he is, eating pizza with a fork, just like I do (the only correct way to eat pizza

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    Kingsley is so smart because he's not a super villain.
    He has superpowers, and gadgets and tech. He IS a supervillain.

    He's a businessman who caters to individuals with large quantities of disposable income and little financial sense.
    His business was bought out by Norman Osborn who drove him out of America.

    The costume is marketing.
    For what product?

    That's what is so great about him. He exploited Osborn's brand and made it more profitable.
    He's making a living hiding under the radar and selling B-grade costumes to low-rent villains.

    Meanwhile, Norman continues to gain and quickly lose power; not to mention his face.
    Norman will inevitably always come back and regain quickly that which he lost. He's come back from the dead, he went from Jail to Head of HAMMER.

  4. #19
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    Kingsley holds on to power and wealth a lot longer than Osborn does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post

    Norman will inevitably always come back and regain quickly that which he lost. He's come back from the dead, he went from Jail to Head of HAMMER.
    And throughout that time, he was treated as a ticking time bomb, frequently disrespected by heroes and villains alike, lost control of the Sentry and got punched in the face by Spider-Man.

    Norman aims high but tends to bite off more than he can chew.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 04-07-2019 at 01:19 AM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Bear in mind that we mean "Crazy" in the comics sense of the term and we always need to be careful when applying and bandying that. To me I never got the sense that Roderick Kingsley's actions would be different if he was written as a madman since Norman in the Lee Ditko era and after resurrection behaved much the same way as he did.
    Green Goblin wasn't written as insane during the Lee/Ditko era. He wasn't even written as having super powers. They were retcons that came later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Jackal was a one-and-done villain who was intended as a joke
    Has Gerry Conway said that he intended Jackal as a joke character?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Green Goblin wasn't written as insane during the Lee/Ditko era. He wasn't even written as having super powers. They were retcons that came later.



    Has Gerry Conway said that he intended Jackal as a joke character?
    The first Clone Saga was meant to be a response to those that wished Gwen was resurrected. Jackal’s obsession with Gwen’s death was meant to be a parody of that.

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Kingsley holds on to power and wealth a lot longer than Osborn does.
    Osborn stayed out of jail for 40 year publication history, Kingsley went to jail within 14 years. Kingsley has never recovered from his arrest and imprisonment in Hobgoblin Lives. Even now he's still a peripheral and marginal figure as both a businessman and a supervillain.

    Whereas Osborn recovers and recoups losses with aplomb. He's gotten stronger after defeats and setbacks.

    And throughout that time, he was treated as a ticking time bomb, frequently disrespected by heroes and villains alike, lost control of the Sentry and got punched in the face by Spider-Man.
    It happens to the worst of them. Similar stuff happened to Dr. Doom and others at various times. Kingsley has never once become a villain of that scale. Heck Kingsley let's not forget is responsible for Peter remaining in New York. When MJ worked for his agency, she used her wages to bail out Peter from being evicted. So Kingsley has indirectly helped Peter Parker.

    Norman aims high but tends to bite off more than he can chew.
    I think that's truer of Kingsley than Norman imho. Anyway, my point being I never once bought Kingsley's shtick as "the sane goblin" because there's not a lot that's sane about dressing up in medieval garb and gliding around and dropping bombs on people. Kingsley at the very least is a cold-blooded sociopath and a conman. And in any case if I want to read a story about a sane mastermind who moves people and manipulates society, I have my Daredevil books and Kingpin stories on my shelf.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    The first Clone Saga was meant to be a response to those that wished Gwen was resurrected. Jackal’s obsession with Gwen’s death was meant to be a parody of that.
    Has Gerry Conway said that the Jackal was a joke though?

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta View Post
    I think that was the point that Stern was trying to make though, that Kingsley WAS insane. Notice how he would always lash out at the mere thought of being "Norman Osborn" crazy.
    I'd take that as an insult too.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Osborn stayed out of jail for 40 year publication history, Kingsley went to jail within 14 years. Kingsley has never recovered from his arrest and imprisonment in Hobgoblin Lives. Even now he's still a peripheral and marginal figure as both a businessman and a supervillain.

    Whereas Osborn recovers and recoups losses with aplomb. He's gotten stronger after defeats and setbacks.
    If anything the opposite has been happening. Remember, he recently took the Carnage symbiote because he felt wasn’t as effective any more without his “insanity”. Even his avoiding prison is more due to blind luck.



    It happens to the worst of them. Similar stuff happened to Dr. Doom and others at various times. Kingsley has never once become a villain of that scale. Heck Kingsley let's not forget is responsible for Peter remaining in New York. When MJ worked for his agency, she used her wages to bail out Peter from being evicted. So Kingsley has indirectly helped Peter Parker.
    Kingsley isn’t a villain of that scale because he never tried to be. Osborn attempted to be a Big Bad of the MU and became a joke. The heroes barely needed to do anything to stop him. They all could have sat back and just let the guy self-destruct but they had to get involved because of how many people Osborn would take down with him.

    Remember, Osborn is a guy who died by his own glider. That's pretty undignified when you think about it.

    I think that's truer of Kingsley than Norman imho. Anyway, my point being I never once bought Kingsley's shtick as "the sane goblin" because there's not a lot that's sane about dressing up in medieval garb and gliding around and dropping bombs on people. Kingsley at the very least is a cold-blooded sociopath and a conman. And in any case if I want to read a story about a sane mastermind who moves people and manipulates society, I have my Daredevil books and Kingpin stories on my shelf.
    He’s sane enough not to do something like bond with a symbiote on purpose. He also knows how to take his defeats like a man.

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Remember, Osborn is a guy who died by his own glider. That's pretty undignified when you think about it.
    He died because he was trying to kill Spider-Man and stab him in the back with it, and Spider-Man ducked at the last minute and it hit him. It's not like this was some accident.

    He also knows how to take his defeats like a man.
    That he has to take defeats that way, and that is his distinction says a lot more about Kingsley's overall lack of oomph than anything.

    At this point one might well ask about whether being an effective villain has anything to do with being rational and sane? And how many of the best villains in comics are entirely rational and sane...think of Dr. Doom, Marvel's best villain by about 100 country miles. Would you say he's entirely rational and sane? Is Emperor Palpatine?

    It could well be argued that Kingsley's too overly pragmatic to be effective, too chuffed about dodging and framing Ned Leeds as a patsy, and too full of himself about how smart he is to be a compelling and effective Goblin. He's basically Sideshow Bob.

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    He died because he was trying to kill Spider-Man and stab him in the back with it, and Spider-Man ducked at the last minute and it hit him. It's not like this was some accident.



    That he has to take defeats that way, and that is his distinction says a lot more about Kingsley's overall lack of oomph than anything.

    At this point one might well ask about whether being an effective villain has anything to do with being rational and sane? And how many of the best villains in comics are entirely rational and sane...think of Dr. Doom, Marvel's best villain by about 100 country miles. Would you say he's entirely rational and sane? Is Emperor Palpatine?

    It could well be argued that Kingsley's too overly pragmatic to be effective, too chuffed about dodging and framing Ned Leeds as a patsy, and too full of himself about how smart he is to be a compelling and effective Goblin. He's basically Sideshow Bob.
    lol! Kingsley doesn't need defense. But thank you for bringing up that putz doom. If being pragmatic is ineffectual, how about being short-sightedly petty? That's how you get pantsed in public. I don't need to trash Osborn. The beef between he and Kingsley is one sided. The latter has different ambitions and the ability to adapt. He wants quick money and he is making it hard over fist. Norman, pathologically, needs to scheme. It's part of that curse. He'd be a lot scarier if he could control himself. Instead Mac Gargan getting the venom symbiote derailed his highly detailed plan. And one whisper ended Dark Reign. He's high functioning for a maniac. And Roderick is high functioning for a sociopath. Good luck convincing fans of the character otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    I thought I couldn't love Steve Rogers any more than I already do, but here he is, eating pizza with a fork, just like I do (the only correct way to eat pizza

  13. #28

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    let the original menace another hero for a while. no deaths, of course.

    alternately, he could get a solo one shot or a two-three part mini series.

  14. #29

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    I loved the storyline arc ... and then came Ben Kingsley Brainwashing expert.

    Was one of the best most feared Spidey villains during the eighties.

    So yes wasted potential imo.

  15. #30
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    I was a boy when i read the Hobgoblin Storys and was super into it. I even liked him better than Norman in the older books.

    When the thing with Ned hit, i was disappointed and didnt really understood what was going on...

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