House of X & Powers of 10 discussion

[Omega Alpha]

Oh, yeah, Hickman introduced a retcon, that means he's a terrible writer, just like Claremont is terrible for making Magneto a survivor of the Holocaust and a buddy of Xavier, the Shi'ar as the top race in the cosmic world despite no one ever mentioning them before, the Shadow King being the reason Xavier decided to form the X-men, etc.

[PsychoEFrost]

Oh, yeah, Hickman introduced a retcon, that means he's a terrible writer, just like Claremont is terrible for making Magneto a survivor of the Holocaust and a buddy of Xavier, the Shi'ar as the top race in the cosmic world despite no one ever mentioning them before, the Shadow King being the reason Xavier decided to form the X-men, etc.

Yes, that is exactly what I said. Completely what I said, absolutely zero nuance. Nailed it completely.

[Rivka]

Which has nothing to do with that the idea that a mutant's mind could be put into a cloned body was absolutely a preexisting element.

That's not "foreshadowing." That's Chris Claremont writing a great story, using a solid science-fiction idea to bring back Professor Xavier. The Shi'ar "golem" of Hickman isn't "foreshadowed" -- he's building on Claremont's work before him. The idea of clones and transferring a mind into a new body--are you forgetting Ben Reilly and the Spider Man clone saga? Is that foreshadowing Hickman too?

Taking an entire archive of a comic book and slipping your ideas into the cracks of continuity--sometimes with surgical precision, other times quite clumsily so that the consequences are very irritating to me--isn't "foreshadowing." It's the retroactive insertion of plot points for the purpose of tweaking continuity to make your current story work. It's kind of taking the easy way, and not as difficult as a writer finding all kinds of bread-crumbs (Claremont left dozens of bread crumbs for writers to follow) in past stories, behind the scenes possibilities that don't contradict ANYTHING, and using these to tell a brand new story that illuminates the continuity instead of retroactively altering it. Hickman uses both techniques (as I've seen so far).

Re: UNCANNY X-MEN #360 to #361 -- so Steve Seagle and editor Mark Powers met up with Hickman 21 years ago and they planned how these comic books would "foreshadow" Hickman's X-MEN work in 2019 and 2020? Going back to past stories, finding elements that support your new plot, is called good comic book writing that uses past continuity.

[numberthirty]

That's not "foreshadowing." That's Chris Claremont writing a great story, using a solid science-fiction idea to bring back Professor Xavier. The Shi'ar "golem" of Hickman isn't "foreshadowed" -- he's building on Claremont's work before him. The idea of clones and transferring a mind into a new body--are you forgetting Ben Reilly and the Spider Man clone saga? Is that foreshadowing Hickman too?

Taking an entire archive of a comic book and slipping your ideas into the cracks of continuity--sometimes with surgical precision, other times quite clumsily so that the consequences are very irritating to me--isn't "foreshadowing." It's the retroactive insertion of plot points for the purpose of tweaking continuity to make your current story work. It's kind of taking the easy way, and not as difficult as a writer finding all kinds of bread-crumbs (Claremont left dozens of bread crumbs for writers to follow) in past stories, behind the scenes possibilities that don't contradict ANYTHING, and using these to tell a brand new story that illuminates the continuity instead of retroactively altering it. Hickman uses both techniques (as I've seen so far).

Re: UNCANNY X-MEN #360 to #361 -- so Steve Seagle and editor Mark Powers met up with Hickman 21 years ago and they planned how these comic books would "foreshadow" Hickman's X-MEN work in 2019 and 2020? Going back to past stories, finding elements that support your new plot, is called good comic book writing that uses past continuity.

Was Moira in on the clone saga?

[Havok83]

Oh, yeah, Hickman introduced a retcon, that means he's a terrible writer, just like Claremont is terrible for making Magneto a survivor of the Holocaust and a buddy of Xavier, the Shi'ar as the top race in the cosmic world despite no one ever mentioning them before, the Shadow King being the reason Xavier decided to form the X-men, etc.

Magneto being Jewish isnt a retcon. he had no backstory before Claremont gave him one. Him being a Holocaust survivor didnt contradict or change his origin, which would have made it a retcon. Besides this was foreshadowed as it was part of Claremont's long game to redeem Magneto which he spent years doing and revealing him as Jewish gave him and Kitty something to connect over as she was the character that served as the catalyst for his redemption arc. Not quite the same thing as Hickman coming in and making massive changes to X-lore in these minis and bc he was not writing X-books before, he most definitely did not foreshadow any of it

[Rivka]

Oh, yeah, Hickman introduced a retcon, that means he's a terrible writer, just like Claremont is terrible for making Magneto a survivor of the Holocaust and a buddy of Xavier, the Shi'ar as the top race in the cosmic world despite no one ever mentioning them before, the Shadow King being the reason Xavier decided to form the X-men, etc.

I may be wrong, but I don't think the retcon is the point. It's the misuse of the term "foreshadowing" that's the issue. For example, S. Moffat's DOCTOR WHO final season and his Mary Sue character Clara. He took her and stuck her (using photo-editing techniques) in every DOCTOR WHO era, showing her saving every Doctor since the beginning--why if it weren't for Clara, every single Doctor Who would have been defeated. That's a massive retcon, and I hated it, but the point is, you can't also go and watch an episode from Series 2 with the 10th Doctor and assert, "Oh, this dialogue foreshadows Clara, or the way the Doctor looks over his shoulder foreshadows Clara" because the writer and director and producers of those episodes had no idea that "Clara" would be thrust upon them years later. Moffat used the DOCTOR WHO continuity to retroactively insert his character into past stories; he also built on the existing canon to justify the characters actions. And as any good writer of serial fiction would, he also used all the varied, brilliant ideas from 50 years worth of stories to help tell his stories. Hickman has done the same, in my opinion.

[JKtheMac]

Yay! Lets all argue about the semantics of ‘foreshadowing’. Clearly there are two different definitions being used so the argument is rather moot.

Yes this is a retcon. So? It is a highly successful and widely praised retcon that has provoked more debate and theorising than anything since Secret Wars. Has sold out over and over pushing even issue 4 to reprint numbers. By any measure this has been hugely successful and for most a satisfying story.

The retcon is much more subtle than many are giving credit. It allows for much of continuity to remain the same and most of the key player’s motivations to remain intact. At the same time it casts continuity into a different light, allowing us to reframe some milestone events in the light of these revelations. For a retcon of this importance it has been handled as well as we could hope.

[Theleviathan]

Yay! Lets all argue about the semantics of ‘foreshadowing’. Clearly there are two different definitions being used so the argument is rather moot.

Yes this is a retcon. So? It is a highly successful and widely praised retcon that has provoked more debate and theorising than anything since Secret Wars. Has sold out over and over pushing even issue 4 to reprint numbers. By any measure this has been hugely successful and for most a satisfying story.

The retcon is much more subtle than many are giving credit. It allows for much of continuity to remain the same and most of the key player’s motivations to remain intact. At the same time it casts continuity into a different light, allowing us to reframe some milestone events in the light of these revelations. For a retcon of this importance it has bern handled as well as we could hope.

Won't someone please think of the canon!!!!

Worrying about retcons and continuity in comic books is like complaining water is wet.

[PsychoEFrost]

Yay! Lets all argue about the semantics of ‘foreshadowing’. Clearly there are two different definitions being used so the argument is rather moot.

Yes this is a retcon. So? It is a highly successful and widely praised retcon that has provoked more debate and theorising than anything since Secret Wars. Has sold out over and over pushing even issue 4 to reprint numbers. By any measure this has been hugely successful and for most a satisfying story.

The retcon is much more subtle than many are giving credit. It allows for much of continuity to remain the same and most of the key player’s motivations to remain intact. At the same time it casts continuity into a different light, allowing us to reframe some milestone events in the light of these revelations. For a retcon of this importance it has bern handled as well as we could hope.

I disagree that the retcons were handled with subtlety. Having Xavier, Magneto and the whole merry crew on board for life ten from the get-go makes almost every story involving them make much less sense. If they were always on the same team, why were they constantly trying to kill each other?

[PsychoEFrost]

Won't someone please think of the canon!!!!

Worrying about retcons and continuity in comic books is like complaining water is wet.

No we should never fix problems?

Retcons get used in comics all the time. This is true. They get overused in comics. This is also true. So we should just give up and accept that writers will abuse that? Feel free to give up if you want.

[Omega Alpha]

Yay! Lets all argue about the semantics of ‘foreshadowing’. Clearly there are two different definitions being used so the argument is rather moot.

Yes this is a retcon. So? It is a highly successful and widely praised retcon that has provoked more debate and theorising than anything since Secret Wars. Has sold out over and over pushing even issue 4 to reprint numbers. By any measure this has been hugely successful and for most a satisfying story.

The retcon is much more subtle than many are giving credit. It allows for much of continuity to remain the same and most of the key player’s motivations to remain intact. At the same time it casts continuity into a different light, allowing us to reframe some milestone events in the light of these revelations. For a retcon of this importance it has bern handled as well as we could hope.

Yep.

I disagree that the retcons were handled with subtlety. Having Xavier, Magneto and the whole merry crew on board for life ten from the get-go makes almost every story involving them make much less sense. If they were always on the same team, why were they constantly trying to kill each other?

Only Xavier there from the get-go. Magneto joined in sometime after UXM #150 and left after he found out Moira had messed with his mind, as well as being dissatisfied with the role he was playing.

[Woozie]

I think the big issue is that a lot of PoX/HoX was dedicated to retcons and retcons to justify other retcons for a premise that... honestly didn't need more than the initial few.

There was no real need to have Magneto or Xavier in on it from such an early point in time.

[Havok83]

I think the big issue is that a lot of PoX/HoX was dedicated to retcons and retcons to justify other retcons for a premise that... honestly didn't need more than the initial few.

There was no real need to have Magneto or Xavier in on it from such an early point in time.

Agreed. Having Xavier reconnect with Moira following his return in AXM would have sufficed IMO

[PsychoEFrost]

Agreed. Having Xavier reconnect with Moira following his return in AXM would have sufficed IMO

Agreed. Magneto would have come aboard naturally without the retcon simply because Krakoa is a superior version of his Genosha.

[Theleviathan]

No we should never fix problems?

Retcons get used in comics all the time. This is true. They get overused in comics. This is also true. So we should just give up and accept that writers will abuse that? Feel free to give up if you want.

You pretty much have to give up. You'll drive yourself crazy. Now, you can hold writers to making good choices and characterizations and all of that, that's fair. But what harm does a retcon do? Upset continuity? Canon?

Those things are as real as unicorns. Or as subjective as your favorite foods. You can't be writing about the same characters for 60 years without that stuff being incredibly flexible. So I'd suggest giving in to the necessity of that flexibility and appreciate the story being told for what it is. You don't have to, but I can't imagine truly enjoying comic book reading without recognizing the spongy nature of the lore.