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  1. #6256
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    Perhaps his embrace was only partial for a long time? That seems to be what Moira is indicating....he understood the stakes, but needed a lot of convincing to make the radical changes necessary for a full embracing.
    He was planning for a long time. We saw Krakoa ready, but in story it took a long time to ready everyhting. Xavier was on board since day one so it could get everything right
    if he started after Astonishing x-men, it owuld never work out. cerebro adaptations, souls backsups, creation of omega mutants.
    It is a long proccess
    Last edited by spirit2011; 10-14-2019 at 03:54 PM.

  2. #6257
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    A misunderstanding is itself an interpretation, but I am pretty sure those arguing this is a terrible retcon with major repercussions to canon are being genuine. Obviously I don’t think the text supports that but even I have to acknowledge that this is partly based upon how I see canon working, and by extension my interpretation of how Hickman sees canon working.

    He wrote two whole mini-series (S.H.I.E.L.D.) laying out his perspective on canon, which he couched in an analogy over how the future of the Marvel Universe will play out. In that he positioned at least two, and arguably more, perspectives upon how comic book canon works.

    The perspective that everything should be rigid and driven by what has come before, a cause and effect canon represented by Issac Newton, and the perspective that all canon should be mutable and open to novel interpretation in the form of Michelangelo. Ultimately a compromise is forced upon then by the protagonist Leonid. He proposes that time (the analogy for canon) should constantly loop around and rewrite itself to suit a universal truth. An evolving but unified history.

    So I interpret this to suggest that Hickman believes the most important thing is the meaning of continuity. That the universal essence of the stories, their very meaning to us as readers and indeed writers, should remain true, but that the details and the symbols should be allowed to change to suit our times. That’s kind of how Marvel have always approached things on one level, by always insisting that retelling are set in contemporary times, but Hickman clearly believes that even the necessary and continual reflection upon continuity that every story contains should also follow this process of recontextualisation.

    This is not an easy concept for readers to grasp and even when it is grasped not everyone will get behind that idea. But Marvel editorial do seem to be doing more and more of this kind of thing. And, I wholly support them in that.
    I'll be honest, I don't tend to mind retcons; it's just that this specific one really feels a bit sociopathic on Moira's part? Like, it's not just one detail or slight re-telling, Charles was outright despairing to us, the audience, in his mourning. If he knew where she was then...what was the point? It's that kind of discrepancy people might be feeling too? Or at least I am; hell I usually love it when authors play fast and loose with continuity!

  3. #6258
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I'll be honest, I don't tend to mind retcons; it's just that this specific one really feels a bit sociopathic on Moira's part? Like, it's not just one detail or slight re-telling, Charles was outright despairing to us, the audience, in his mourning. If he knew where she was then...what was the point? It's that kind of discrepancy people might be feeling too? Or at least I am; hell I usually love it when authors play fast and loose with continuity!
    It's a retcon were u have to ignore it. There i sno way that the retcon can play well with established continuity

  4. #6259
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I'll be honest, I don't tend to mind retcons; it's just that this specific one really feels a bit sociopathic on Moira's part? Like, it's not just one detail or slight re-telling, Charles was outright despairing to us, the audience, in his mourning. If he knew where she was then...what was the point? It's that kind of discrepancy people might be feeling too? Or at least I am; hell I usually love it when authors play fast and loose with continuity!
    And I have already agreed more than once that Charles’ grief in Dream’s End is something that needs to be addressed. But this is speculative serialised fiction and I fully expect that to be addressed at some point.

    I am half expecting that the first time Charles reset himself to an earlier version (the book says he did this twice) was just after he set the plan in motion to fake Moira’s death. That way he wouldn’t have known that he helped to fake it or that it was a fake. Grief would probably cloud him to the fact that he lost some time, but even that could be covered up with the right choice of circumstances for a reset.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  5. #6260
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    I like this. Good job, "Paul."

    http://www.housetoastonish.com/?p=4809
    I don't blind date I make the direct market vibrate

  6. #6261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    I like this. Good job, "Paul."

    http://www.housetoastonish.com/?p=4809
    Thankyou; I found this to be a very fresh and balanced perspective, as well as very informative. I think it's also helped validate something I've known in my gut for a while; the flagship book is not for me.

    I still want to support characters that I love, however, so I'm willing to give a few select titles a try...though I think I might have to be prepared to start making peace with leaving X-men altogether (not an easy feat for an autistic person, lemme tell ya. I'm starting to curse it becoming a special interest at all.)

  7. #6262
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    I like this. Good job, "Paul."

    http://www.housetoastonish.com/?p=4809
    it is a very good read, but I don’t share all of the sentiments. These were very clearly two fully expressed and complete stories from my perspective. I also don’t agree that the main Hickman titles will be more of the same style, which I feel is implied here.

    Otherwise a nicely balanced and thoughtful piece.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  8. #6263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Every single time, that leads to mutantkind's extinction.
    And pretty much every single time it was because the fight was putting on spangly outfits and running around as vigilantes. How many times has it been taken to court? Or lobbied in Congress? Where the the 'anonymous hack' that released the information on Project: Wideawake and what it's done to mutants...or the Weapon X projects experimentation on and killing of mutants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    I know the classification and theory is all over the place but for simplicity... I'm sticking with the Mutants are humans with an extra special x-gene.
    Like: a man with extra toes and fingers, or having red hair, heterochromia or a genius brain.
    Their baseline genetic make-up is human...but with a genetic "anomaly".
    Which raises the question...are mutants the next step in evolution? Or just genetic anomalies instigated mutagenic substances that are either man made or naturally occurring.
    Last edited by Chris0013; 10-14-2019 at 04:54 PM.

  9. #6264
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    It's a retcon were u have to ignore it. There i sno way that the retcon can play well with established continuity
    It fits the continuity more than Xavier and Magneto being buddies for a long time despite the fact that wasn't mentioned in the first 20 years of comics in which the two of them appear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    And pretty much every single time it was because the fight was putting on spangly outfits and running around as vigilantes. How many times has it been taken to court? Or lobbied in Congress? Where the the 'anonymous hack' that released the information on Project: Wideawake and what it's done to mutants...or the Weapon X projects experimentation on and killing of mutants?
    Except that isn't the case. The X-men have tried to use political power before. Using economic power was part of the point of the Hellfire Club. As recently as Rosenberg's run, governments were publicly forcing mutants to vaccinate, and I'm pretty sure Weapon X's practices are well-known. In Life 5 they hide from the world and still get annihilated. In lives 8 or 9 they are most certainly not being superheroes, at least Moira's X-men.
    Last edited by Omega Alpha; 10-14-2019 at 04:59 PM.

  10. #6265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    It fits the continuity more than Xavier and Magneto being buddies for a long time despite the fact that wasn't mentioned in the first 20 years of comics in which the two of them appear.
    It was established as early as Uncanny X-Men #4 written in the 1960s by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby themselves that Xavier and Magneto had a pre-existing connection that predated the X-Men. Notably, Magneto was the only villain of the day who, unlike Vanisher, Blob, etc. knew of Xavier's powers and position as leader of the X-Men, and reached out for a telepathic argument.

    My take on how the new revelations fit with established history is below--
    Xavier learning about Moira's past lives in Oxford before he founded the school doesn't make sense at all. He then has petty fights with Joe MacTaggert, goes to the Korean War, then wanders around Israel and Tibet?

    I think we should ignore the Year One designation entirely.

    This is not at all what Hickman is intending, but we fans have been fixing X-Men writers' mistakes for decades. I propose: Charles and Moira met in Oxford as before, and Charles didn't learn Moira's secret. Charles learned it circa UXM 150 (around when Magneto started becoming good), then we immediately have Moira and Charles recruiting Magneto around UXM150. Magneto later writes Moira's story off as a lie circa 1991's Mutant Genesis after the revelation she altered his DNA, making him lose trust in her.

    Moira fakes her death in 2000's Dream's End crossover.

    Xavier is shot in the head by Bishop in 2008's Messiah Complex crossover. Afterwards he is walking around and amnesiac for quite a while. This is when the believed dead Moira approaches him in the fair scene, and why he doesn't remember her. Then he reads her mind and remembers her, later gets his memories back, dies in the Phoenix 5 incident, is resurrected in Astonishing, and here we are.

    Yeah it's not at all what Hickman intends, but until he says otherwise about that fair scene, it works.

  11. #6266
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    This might have been discussed earlier in the 400+ pages, but I'm curious as to how others feel about something. Xavier admits his dream is dead, however Magneto is calling him and his people God's now. Has Magneto been right all along and Moira only needed to convince Xavier to see that? Has Magneto had to alter or abandon his philosophy? Does Magneto's "dream" only take the form that it does due to Moira's influence? Is House of M the end game to House of X?
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  12. #6267
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    This might have been discussed earlier in the 400+ pages, but I'm curious as to how others feel about something. Xavier admits his dream is dead, however Magneto is calling him and his people God's now. Has Magneto been right all along and Moira only needed to convince Xavier to see that? Has Magneto had to alter or abandon his philosophy? Does Magneto's "dream" only take the form that it does due to Moira's influence? Is House of M the end game to House of X?
    Neither Xavier nor Magneto are right, exactly. Also, Namor and seemingly Moira doubt that he abandoned the dream entirely.

  13. #6268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    This might have been discussed earlier in the 400+ pages, but I'm curious as to how others feel about something. Xavier admits his dream is dead, however Magneto is calling him and his people God's now. Has Magneto been right all along and Moira only needed to convince Xavier to see that? Has Magneto had to alter or abandon his philosophy? Does Magneto's "dream" only take the form that it does due to Moira's influence? Is House of M the end game to House of X?
    We see that moira broke Xavier and Magneto. While Xavier was pushing his dream, he was also working on making krakoa possible: cerebro enhacements, how to create omega mutants, Moira faking her death.
    Seems like his dream was just a way to unite x-men and burn some time until krakoa is ready

  14. #6269
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    The flashbacks show Xavier only started the Cerebro enhancements and the reaching out to Magneto in the mid 80s early 90s, around the time Magneto became good for a while. Which corroborates my theory that Xavier only learned Moira's history circa UXM 150 when Magneto turned good, and the entire fair scene is Moira reappearing during Xavier's amnesiac period post-Messiah Complex.

    Still I would like to think Xavier and/or Beast kept DNA records of the O5 as early as their 1960s years. So surely now Beast and Archangel can be reverted to their pre-blue selves...?

  15. #6270
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Neither Xavier nor Magneto are right, exactly. Also, Namor and seemingly Moira doubt that he abandoned the dream entirely.
    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    We see that moira broke Xavier and Magneto. While Xavier was pushing his dream, he was also working on making krakoa possible: cerebro enhacements, how to create omega mutants, Moira faking her death.
    Seems like his dream was just a way to unite x-men and burn some time until krakoa is ready
    Okay I can definitely understand and agree she broke Xavier, I even said that in my previous post, but how would you say she broke Magneto? Most of his life he has wanted mutants to assert themselves as the dominant species and that's basically what Krakoa is starting right? I know the book tells us she "swayed" Magneto but what have we actually seen that backs this up?

    I'm literally asking for some education here, my X-Men knowledge starts at roughly the year 2000 so I just don't know. I suppose you could make an argument that he abandoned his goals from New X-Men by Morrison but Wolverine separated him from that goal more so than Moira I'd argue.
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