House of X & Powers of 10 discussion

[Daedra]

Or maybe... just maybe... and hear me out because it's a crazy idea...

Hickman tells a story that doesn't require massive retcons and characters acting weird in order to work. I know it's a lot to ask of the most anticipated writer since Morrison, but somehow I think he could do it. Might just be me.

I tend to agree with you, right now I wonder if the endgame will ever be worth all this twisting and turning

[spirit2011]

Or maybe... just maybe... and hear me out because it's a crazy idea...

Hickman tells a story that doesn't require massive retcons and characters acting weird in order to work. I know it's a lot to ask of the most anticipated writer since Morrison, but somehow I think he could do it. Might just be me.

It was clear that Hickman run owuld have retcons. It was retcons or time travel to make the story work.

it completely changed x-men story. i'm not sure what to think about the retcons, it can be too early.

but the characterizations are bad.

I don't know how you expect to get fresh, new stories without some degree of retcon. You'll get constant retreads of the same stories already told. Or you'll get what Morrison did - bastardize the characters to fit the story you want to tell. Or some other affront.

And, I think it's only fair to point out, he didn't change "all the stories". He retconned their context and changed a few, but as far as retcons go this might be one of the least world-altering ones I've ever seen.

I want comics to use the characters I love in fresh, exciting, and fun new ways. I simply acknowledge that will require some retcons and changes to accomplish it. I gladly sacrifice that.

It changed a lot of things. Everything about we know about charles and Magneto is different

or it wouldn't even be a retcon

[Omega Alpha]

Or maybe... just maybe... and hear me out because it's a crazy idea...

Hickman tells a story that doesn't require massive retcons and characters acting weird in order to work. I know it's a lot to ask of the most anticipated writer since Morrison, but somehow I think he could do it. Might just be me.

Then this story doesn't exist and Hickman isn't working for Marvel, meaning we're stuck with someone like Rosenberg or Guggenheim. The only reason he came was to tell it, and it worked.

And every X-men writer retconned something. Whedon retconned the reason for Scott's brain injury, Morrison retconned Jean and the Phoenix being one and the same and the origins of the Weapon X program, Claremont retconned Xavier and Magneto into best buddies, etc. Retcons aren't good or bad by themselves, they're just a narrative tool just like any other. Here, Hickman used it so we can move the X-men metaphor away from "model minority has to stop racists" that has been done for the last 50 years.

[PrezValentine]

Or maybe... just maybe... and hear me out because it's a crazy idea...

Hickman tells a story that doesn't require massive retcons and characters acting weird in order to work. I know it's a lot to ask of the most anticipated writer since Morrison, but somehow I think he could do it. Might just be me.

He could, but he chose not to. At some point, the X-Men editorial would have to give someone talented some level of creative freedom to tell a good story. That was Hickman. If you like writers with a big amount of constraints around how they write, there's plenty of X-Men books published between AvX and Rosenberg that fit that bill just fine. Or Avengers books, I guess.

[PsychoEFrost]

Then this story doesn't exist and Hickman isn't working for Marvel, meaning we're stuck with someone like Rosenberg or Guggenheim. The only reason he came was to tell it, and it worked.

And every X-men writer retconned something. Whedon retconned the reason for Scott's brain injury, Morrison retconned Jean and the Phoenix being one and the same and the origins of the Weapon X program, Claremont retconned Xavier and Magneto into best buddies, etc. Retcons aren't good or bad by themselves, they're just a narrative tool just like any other. Here, Hickman used it so we can move the X-men metaphor away from "model minority has to stop racists" that has been done for the last 50 years.

Do you always just go for the most extreme hyperbole possible?

And it is very apparent Hickman wanted to tell HIS story. He just didn't care if it fit, or if the characters worked for it, or if the history of those who came before him openly contradicted him, he was gonna tell his story damn it. And I get that this is what you get with Hickman. It's what he did with the Avengers and Fantastic Four.

But to assume that the two worst writers in recent X-history would be the ONLY OTHER OPTION is completely disingenuous.

[BroHomo]

Then this story doesn't exist and Hickman isn't working for Marvel, meaning we're stuck with someone like Rosenberg or Guggenheim. The only reason he came was to tell it, and it worked.

And every X-men writer retconned something. Whedon retconned the reason for Scott's brain injury, Morrison retconned Jean and the Phoenix being one and the same and the origins of the Weapon X program, Claremont retconned Xavier and Magneto into best buddies, etc. Retcons aren't good or bad by themselves, they're just a narrative tool just like any other. Here, Hickman used it so we can move the X-men metaphor away from "model minority has to stop racists" that has been done for the last 50 years.

Austen retconned comic logic

[PsychoEFrost]

He could, but he chose not to. At some point, the X-Men editorial would have to give someone talented some level of creative freedom to tell a good story. That was Hickman. If you like writers with a big amount of constraints around how they write, there's plenty of X-Men books published between AvX and Rosenberg that fit that bill just fine. Or Avengers books, I guess.

I feel like there is a middle ground between "free reign to tell literally any story regardless of how well it fits or how many changes need to be made to make it work" and "tell exactly the story Marvel editorial wants you to tell down to the font or you're fired."

[Omega Alpha]

Austen retconned comic logic

And common sense.

I feel like there is a middle ground between "free reign to tell literally any story regardless of how well it fits or how many changes need to be made to make it work" and "tell exactly the story Marvel editorial wants you to tell down to the font or you're fired."

But here's the thing...the story fits, like many have pointed out. It's just that you want Hickman to acknowledge every comic written in the last 56 years, even when they were written after he begun working in this story (basically, anything in the last year or more), they were crap, they didn't serve the story he's trying to tell, or all of them. Not a single writer can make his story fit with literally everything that came before- why we never saw Xavier and Magneto talk like friends before Claremont? Why Daredevil is never shown to think of Elektra at least once in the 20 years before Frank Miller took over? Etc, etc.

[PrezValentine]

I feel like there is a middle ground between "free reign to tell literally any story regardless of how well it fits or how many changes need to be made to make it work" and "tell exactly the story Marvel editorial wants you to tell down to the font or you're fired."

There might be. If anything, Hickman is using a bunch of established elements, isn't he? Krakoa doesn't work in a vacuum, despite weirdos saying it should be how the X-Men are introduced in the MCU, it just works because of what the readers know of X-Men history. You can't really say he's throwing everything away. Past events might be mentioned ahead, who knows, aside from the ones already used. HoX/PoX was a Charles/Magneto/Moira story with the X-Men as side-characters and it worked in that sense. Hickman might also use future issues to make past stories make more sense with what he introduced.

[spirit2011]

It would be good if writers tried to stop trying to reinvent the wheel on x-men. I feel like it just deviate of the core of the franchise

Good thing that mutant turtoes is already taken

[PsychoEFrost]

And common sense.



But here's the thing...the story fits, like many have pointed out. It's just that you want Hickman to acknowledge every comic written in the last 56 years, even when they were written after he begun working in this story (basically, anything in the last year or more), they were crap, they didn't serve the story he's trying to tell, or all of them. Not a single writer can make his story fit with literally everything that came before- why we never saw Xavier and Magneto talk like friends before Claremont? Why Daredevil is never shown to think of Elektra at least once in the 20 years before Frank Miller took over? Etc, etc.

The story only fits because Hickman made massive sweeping changes to the entire history of the franchise. That's not a good thing, and I don't understand why people think it's fine.

[Theleviathan]

I feel like there is a middle ground between "free reign to tell literally any story regardless of how well it fits or how many changes need to be made to make it work" and "tell exactly the story Marvel editorial wants you to tell down to the font or you're fired."

Maybe....but how many comic writers have managed to write any sagas that would fit that middle ground the last 20 years?

It will only continue to get harder as time goes on. I sympathize with your position, I have just come to terms with the nature of canon/continuity after 60 years I guess. I want good stories without character assassination so I will pay any price for that.

[spirit2011]

Do you always just go for the most extreme hyperbole possible?

And it is very apparent Hickman wanted to tell HIS story. He just didn't care if it fit, or if the characters worked for it, or if the history of those who came before him openly contradicted him, he was gonna tell his story damn it. And I get that this is what you get with Hickman. It's what he did with the Avengers and Fantastic Four.

But to assume that the two worst writers in recent X-history would be the ONLY OTHER OPTION is completely disingenuous.

I didn't knew there was only guggemheim or Rosenberg as options.

i'm gonna defend Rosenberg, because his new mutants mini kicked ass

[jwatson]

Good writers shouldn't need retcons. A retcon shouldn't be the hammer Marvel employs it as. It should be a last resort to fix something glaring and and problematic. Rectonning Xorneto was a needed step to fix that horrible "herding humans into ovens" problem. Retconning Jean to not be the one who killed the D'Bari was needed to allow the character to be used again.

But in this case the retcon is "Hickman wanted to tell his story, and needed to make it happen no matter what it took". That's an extremely poor use of the tool.

No retcon is needed that is just opinion. You either use one or don't. Jean didn't need a retcon to be use again someone felt the retcon was the better way to go but there could have just as easily been a story exploring her frame of mind at the time same goes with Xorneto or a million other ways to tackle it. So your either okay with retcons or your not, otherwise your only okay with them when they work for or make sense to you. Hickman chose to tell his story this way and people can put whatever label they want on it as far as calling it a retcon or not but lets not act like we have a problem with the very element of retconning itself if we really don't.

[Emesem]

And every X-men writer retconned something. Whedon retconned the reason for Scott's brain injury, Morrison retconned Jean and the Phoenix being one and the same and the origins of the Weapon X program, Claremont retconned Xavier and Magneto into best buddies, etc. Retcons aren't good or bad by themselves, they're just a narrative tool just like any othe Here, Hickman used it so we can move the X-men metaphor away from "model minority has to stop racists" that has been done for the last 50 years.

No problem with retcons or changing the status quo. I just wish Hickman found some humanity in his writing and that everything wasn’t so cold and lifeless. Unfortunately this is who he is. He’s not going change his approach as its work well for him so far commercially.