House of X & Powers of 10 discussion

[Maestroneto]

Okay I can definitely understand and agree she broke Xavier, I even said that in my previous post, but how would you say she broke Magneto? Most of his life he has wanted mutants to assert themselves as the dominant species and that's basically what Krakoa is starting right? I know the book tells us she "swayed" Magneto but what have we actually seen that backs this up?

I'm literally asking for some education here, my X-Men knowledge starts at roughly the year 2000 so I just don't know. I suppose you could make an argument that he abandoned his goals from New X-Men by Morrison but Wolverine separated him from that goal more so than Moira I'd argue.

She turned him from a straight up terrorist to a revolutionary who will use violence if neccesary.

[Wolverine12]

She turned him from a straight up terrorist to a revolutionary who will use violence if neccesary.

Hasn't he been part of the X-Men most recently? In X-Men blue? Besides the end of Morrison's run when was he a terrorist? Most of what I've read he comes across as a revolutionary already which is why I'm asking. Again, I've only really read from the 2000's and on so most of what's going on seems like it's in Magneto's wheel house.

[powerpax]

Magneto in the '60s, '70s and '90s was a straight up supervillain most of the time. Magneto's heel turn back from a reformed villain/X-Man/X-ally in the '80s was pushed in the '90s by Bob Harras and Jim Lee, who wanted a return to the traditional version of the character.

It's been insinuated in PoX that Magneto's original reformation in the '80s was influenced by his learning the truth from Moira, and that his subsequent turn back to villainy was caused by his discovering she manipulated his genetics as revealed in adjectiveless X-Men #1-3 in 1991.

[jamesslow]

I'll be honest, I don't tend to mind retcons; it's just that this specific one really feels a bit sociopathic on Moira's part? Like, it's not just one detail or slight re-telling, Charles was outright despairing to us, the audience, in his mourning. If he knew where she was then...what was the point? It's that kind of discrepancy people might be feeling too? Or at least I am; hell I usually love it when authors play fast and loose with continuity!

same. i've been re-reading carey's x-men legacy. here's another example from that series, which hickman calls criminally underrated:
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[Domino_Dare-Doll]

same. i've been re-reading carey's x-men legacy. here's another example from that series, which hickman calls criminally underrated:
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Yeesh...kinda reads like she's 'testing' him now...like a programmer and their new software...(ick...?)

[Electricmastro]

Magneto in the '60s, '70s and '90s was a straight up supervillain most of the time. Magneto's heel turn back from a reformed villain/X-Man/X-ally in the '80s was pushed in the '90s by Bob Harras and Jim Lee, who wanted a return to the traditional version of the character.

It's been insinuated in PoX that Magneto's original reformation in the '80s was influenced by his learning the truth from Moira, and that his subsequent turn back to villainy was caused by his discovering she manipulated his genetics as revealed in adjectiveless X-Men #1-3 in 1991.

If anything, I think he's best compared with Namor. Two mutants who usually have well-intentioned goals, but either aren't always sure what the best methods to use or succumb to the ends justifying the means. They make for interesting characters teeter tottering between villainous and heroic.

[JKtheMac]

This might have been discussed earlier in the 400+ pages, but I'm curious as to how others feel about something. Xavier admits his dream is dead, however Magneto is calling him and his people God's now. Has Magneto been right all along and Moira only needed to convince Xavier to see that? Has Magneto had to alter or abandon his philosophy? Does Magneto's "dream" only take the form that it does due to Moira's influence? Is House of M the end game to House of X?

It is important to keep in perspective that this story hasn’t definitively said Moira is right, or that Xavier is right to abandon his dream. We are only at the beginning of a long run which is bound to explore these issues.

We see that moira broke Xavier and Magneto. While Xavier was pushing his dream, he was also working on making krakoa possible: cerebro enhacements, how to create omega mutants, Moira faking her death.
Seems like his dream was just a way to unite x-men and burn some time until krakoa is ready

Where exactly do we see that Moira ‘broke’ anyone? You are making 2+2=5. Indeed at the end of PoX Moira is isolated because both Charles and Erik have wilfully begun to go there own way and depart from Moira’s plans. (I would suggest they were never in lockstep at any point.)

Just because Moira speculates that she needs to break Charles doesn’t mean she did so.

In my opinion Hickman is misdirecting you and others by hinting that Moira has been more powerful and directive than she actually has been. He wants us to ask questions about her motives and actions but he categorically doesn’t want us to snap judge everything after the first arc of a story that will take years to tell. If he did he wouldn’t have included the journal entries.

We now know someone will be writing Moira’s story, so let us wait and see what actually happened rather than get up in arms over things that haven’t even been put down on paper yet.

[numberthirty]

So, I got to thinking about the genetic database that they now have on hand...

For a stretch, "Age Of Apocalypse" Kurt Darkholme was living on what I would assume is the Earth(616) that the current story is taking place on.

What are the odds that he is a part of that genetic database?

[JKtheMac]

The flashbacks show Xavier only started the Cerebro enhancements and the reaching out to Magneto in the mid 80s early 90s, around the time Magneto became good for a while. Which corroborates my theory that Xavier only learned Moira's history circa UXM 150 when Magneto turned good, and the entire fair scene is Moira reappearing during Xavier's amnesiac period post-Messiah Complex.

Still I would like to think Xavier and/or Beast kept DNA records of the O5 as early as their 1960s years. So surely now Beast and Archangel can be reverted to their pre-blue selves...?

We now know that there was actually a mistake in the art such that it suggested the Forge scene was in the wrong timeframe. So maybe we need to wait and see how that one is worked out. Somehow Hickman needs to fix that, either by rewriting his timelines, creating an earlier scene that gets someone else to do the preliminary work, or recontextualising the scene we saw.

According yo yesterday’s Q&A they planned to obfuscate the issue in the colouring but were unable to.

Some of us always insisted that scene seemed likely to be earlier than the clothing and wheelchair choices suggested.

[JKtheMac]

Hasn't he been part of the X-Men most recently? In X-Men blue? Besides the end of Morrison's run when was he a terrorist? Most of what I've read he comes across as a revolutionary already which is why I'm asking. Again, I've only really read from the 2000's and on so most of what's going on seems like it's in Magneto's wheel house.

What seems to be the plan is that Hickman wants us to recontextualise the argument between Moira and Erik when he accuses her of manipulating him in his age regressed form and leaves. In other words the canon remains the same. His actions throughout canon are his own but he just had some extra knowledge in the back of his mind regarding what Moira wanted and what Charles may also be pondering.

The more we try and see canon as being fundamentally altered the more this story will fall apart. Nothing suggests we are supposed to do this and many clues suggest the exact opposite.

[jamesslow]

Yeesh...kinda reads like she's 'testing' him now...like a programmer and their new software...(ick...?)

continuing my re-read of carey's xmen legacy, here's a prescient scene between charles and bennet (do we know why his face is no longer red?)
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[MarvelMaster616]

same. i've been re-reading carey's x-men legacy. here's another example from that series, which hickman calls criminally underrated:
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In hindsight, this exchange was rather prophetic.

[Devaishwarya]

From my interpretation, Moira 'broke' Xavier not by overtly, nefariously manipulating him or deliberately changing his mindset. She 'broke' him by showing him that his dream ultimately fails...no matter how often, or how hard he tries to achieve it.
She does admit to manipulating him (and Erik) by not giving him all the necessary information and allowing him (and thereby Erik) to act/make decisions based on his own understanding/interpretation of the events he's been shown...(not unlike some people in this thread).

That is to say...this is our Xavier, just with a slightly different mind-set on mutant survival and existence.
I don't think he sees his dreams as completely lost or shattered (or else he would have given up hope) but that it has to be re-contextualised given what he knows...hence, Krakoa-Mutant Nation.

[JB]

continuing my re-read of carey's xmen legacy, here's a prescient scene between charles and bennet (do we know why his face is no longer red?)
Capture.jpg

This was delicious to read. Thank you for sharing.

[Filthy Mutie]

While You Slept, the World Changed: Answering 12 Important Questions About House of X and Powers of X: https://sktchd.com/longform/while-yo...d-powers-of-x/