House of X & Powers of 10 discussion

[Theleviathan]

That’s what happens in a culture where the loudest voices are readers of a certain age who value everything they have read which contrasts fundamentally with the reality of writing and the explicit aims of the editors.



Spot on. That is such an important point that needs to be made over and over it seems. If reading mainstream superhero comics is to be enjoyable on any level then we have to celebrate the way these characters are flexible and how canon is mutable. Otherwise we end up using canon to destroy our own enjoyment. That’s a choice we have to make. Whether we pour our energy into railing against this or reconciling this.

This is not anyone’s fault other than the reader who chooses to do this to themselves. The writers are doing their job. The editors are allowing canon to be used as inspiration and to inform the stories without letting that be overwhelming and ossifying.

Agree completely. And to those that stomp their feet about canon and retcons and the like, I'd say this: You already recognize the spongy nature whether you acknowledge it or not. Cyclops was an 18 year old in 1960 and is somehow still in his prime years in 2020. The world in the books continues to match ours but the characters never age (or, better yet, their children often age but the parents don't), no one ever stays dead, villains come and go and die and try the same plan over and over, the world gets catastrophically annihilated without any real repercussions, etc. I could go on. We constantly suspend our disbelief, it's a necessary part of enjoyably (and sanely) reading comics.

Also, how on earth do we expect quality content, even from the very best writers, in a universe constrained by 60 years of content? No author would do that to themselves or accept restraints like that. It is numbing to the creative process and limiting to the ideas you can generate.

[Devaishwarya]

As a 30+ years reader my personal mantra is and has always been:
This isn't 1985. This isn't Claremont (and even he was a little wishy-washy if you took a good long look into the details).
I maintain you have to allow yourself the opportunity to judge a book/writer/artist on their own merit...with a healthy dose of SoD...with respect to the joy and interest they impart.

[jmc247]

I loved that issue with Polaris building the statue.

Indeed, if the publishers felt the X Men needed a nemesis with control over magnetism, they would not have ever needed to resurrect Magneto, since it would not have taken much imagination to write that the Genoshan tragedy radicalised Polaris, and perhaps boosted her into an omega level threat. I would have been perfectly content with Erik left dead forever but alive as the Magneto Was Right meme ("Ideas are bulletproof." - V).

At least as of HoX #5 it seems as though Hickman reached back and brought forward much more of the Lorna from that era then anything else though we will know with more certainty with X-Men #1. They were certainly leaning in the direction of her taking on the proverbal mantle, but ended up with her as the teams 'middle ground' character until Magneto returned and she suddenly was returned to being simply a generic super powered love interest character.

With Magneto's return to the X-Men and him becoming an x-ally that slot was seen as taken so writers haven't known what to do with her. I think Hickman is less encumbered by the idea of straight designations of this is your slot and this is yours as many writers which is a plus for her. But, we will have to see if she has a role on the island outside of muscle. I was hoping to see her involved with politics.

[Yistaan]

So has it been confirmed that resurrected mutants are at the same age when they died? Because I see absolutely no reason why Xavier should do that. He probably would only age resurrected mutants to early 20s.

Even with Marvel time involved, the original X-Men would be something like mid 30s. (Quentin Quire was born the day Trask published his anti mutant painting in the original 60s series).

Plus, reducing the X-Men's age would give them an extra decade or so if Xavier is playing the long game. Jean might be Marvel Girl again because her resurrected age is biologically early 20s now.

[Lapsus]

It is testament to the skewed stakes of so many comics that many consider taking away death as removing stakes from future comics. Any decent writer can come up with earth shattering personal stakes without death being the primary motivation.

Removing death is a kick in the balls for me, nobody dies if the author doesnt want anybody to die.

There is no need for the heroes to be inmortal, just dont kill them, they are not alive for fucks sake, they cannot kill themselves.

I seriously cannot work around this fact, or Marvel is too stupid to write stories without fake drama or too dense too see the most simple solution.

[spirit2011]

Removing death is a kick in the balls for me, nobody dies if the author doesnt want anybody to die.

There is no need for the heroes to be inmortal, just dont kill them, they are not alive for fucks sake, they cannot kill themselves.

I seriously cannot work around this fact, or Marvel is too stupid to write stories without fake drama or too dense too see the most simple solution.

I think both are true. Death became a cheap drama and meaningless

I don't expect this ressurrection go for more than one decade

[spirit2011]

Because it is a good thing. You don’t like it....that’s clear and that’s fine. But your distaste of retcons doesn’t make them objectively bad. I quite like retcons, when I think they’re handled well. And this one was handled well.

Change is good. The franchise had grown stale. They needed to do something that did the following:

- distanced itself from the recent past
- moved the whole concept forward a bit
- harkened back to the celebrated past

This story did that. It reversed a lot of what was bad about the X-Men and a lot of pointless errors made by past writers.

It has set the table for a more interesting dynamic than the franchise has seen in many years.

Was the retcon flawless? No....there are a few stories that don’t really make a lot of sense. Dream’s End comes to mind. But Dream’s End is pretty much dogshit, so I say good. I don’t care that it came first chronologically.

This is just my opinion. And it’s only as valid as yours. We just see it differently.

I do think that your assessment that the story has made “massive sweeping changes to the entire history of the franchise” is an overstatement. Talk about hyperbole. I think most of the history is still intact. In some cases, I find the changes even reinforce what we already know.

But really, I’m open to change. I’m open to creative reinterpretation. That’s my opinion. And that’s really all there is to understand.

it was basically a soft reboot, a lot of things completely changed

Agree Hickman did quite a bit of clean up on the franchise. For example people are mad that all the villains are around on Krakoa but X-men have nearly all of old villians back now as well. Without hard reboot the franchise Hickman has manage to bring back every character worthwhile to the table. Hickman put all the toys back into toy box and fixed them. The franchise is in a 1,000 better shape because of the set up. When the run is over other writers will be able to play with all of X-men toys. All the good villains are around, All of the good X-men around. If you want to go full nostalgia everyone is alive except T-bird. And Hickman is doing something with Thunderbird dna and Mr Sinister.

It was a soft reboot, that changes everything we know about x-men.

what villains back, they weren't even dead. No need to give Hickman credit for this.
Sure is good to have characters back from dead, but the way they are doing it? not that good

[JKtheMac]

So has it been confirmed that resurrected mutants are at the same age when they died? Because I see absolutely no reason why Xavier should do that. He probably would only age resurrected mutants to early 20s.

It is pretty clear from the text that they are not resurrected at the age that they died. Polaris states: They are "temporally evolved to their desired age -- perhaps even to their optimal and perfected form".

Their minds will be as close as possible to their deaths but not, it seems, their bodies.

[PsychoEFrost]

Yep. This is that middle ground. A story that relies upon something fundamentally new and yet is carefully placed into canon So as not to overturn it. The fact you personally think it shifts canon too much is not anyone else’s concern. Not the writers and not the editors. They consider this to be the middle ground. So do I and so do a very large number of satisfied readers.



He really hasn’t. You seem to be under the misapprehension that his changes are much bigger than they are.

So because people enjoy it, it's not totally messing with the entire history of the franchise.

This is exactly what I mean. You're jumping through miles of hoops to justify Hickman's work because it gives mutants a win. I think that is horrible writing. You seem to be under the impression that because the last writers didn't do a good job, Hickman taking a sledgehammer to everything is fine. I think that sets a horrible precedent.

But whatever. It's clear my protests to the Cult of Hickman are falling on ears that don't want to hear. Wake me up when Age of Moira is over and the actual X-Men are back, not the Inhumans 2.0 Hickman gave you.

[H-E-D]

“Messing with the history of the franchise” is not inherently a bad thing.

[jwatson]

So because people enjoy it, it's not totally messing with the entire history of the franchise.

This is exactly what I mean. You're jumping through miles of hoops to justify Hickman's work because it gives mutants a win. I think that is horrible writing. You seem to be under the impression that because the last writers didn't do a good job, Hickman taking a sledgehammer to everything is fine. I think that sets a horrible precedent.

But whatever. It's clear my protests to the Cult of Hickman are falling on ears that don't want to hear. Wake me up when Age of Moira is over and the actual X-Men are back, not the Inhumans 2.0 Hickman gave you.

Yes? Isn't that what people spend their money on, things they enjoy. If people are enjoying it it's only destroying the franchise for those who aren't. Not saying that's a good thing but i don't get the just cause your enjoying it thing. Would it be better if the majority hated it but it honored the history of the franchise according to you?

[The tall man]

So because people enjoy it, it's not totally messing with the entire history of the franchise.

This is exactly what I mean. You're jumping through miles of hoops to justify Hickman's work because it gives mutants a win. I think that is horrible writing. You seem to be under the impression that because the last writers didn't do a good job, Hickman taking a sledgehammer to everything is fine. I think that sets a horrible precedent.

But whatever. It's clear my protests to the Cult of Hickman are falling on ears that don't want to hear. Wake me up when Age of Moira is over and the actual X-Men are back, not the Inhumans 2.0 Hickman gave you.

100% agree! It seems like most are willing to accept massive retcons and hand wave away anything that doesn't make sense just because mutants are seen as finally winning. After decades of being on the back foot and constant stories of extinction and genocide mutants now have their own nation and are on the ascendency. It doesn't matter to some how they got there, all that matters is it's a win for mutants. So the Hickman fans will justify, rationalize, hand wave and just outright ignore anything that questions how we got to this point. Basically don't ask questions, just accept it as is. But I wonder if mutants start to suffer some losses and setbacks will people still blindly accept the new status quo?

[PsychoEFrost]

Yes? Isn't that what people spend their money on, things they enjoy. If people are enjoying it it's only destroying the franchise for those who aren't. Not saying that's a good thing but i don't get the just cause your enjoying it thing. Would it be better if the majority hated it but it honored the history of the franchise according to you?

I'm saying people liking something is not a barometer for its success. And because of the nature of comic books, we won't know how successful HoX/PoX are for several years. Will it actually establish a status that sticks around, will it be undone by the next writer, or will it be retconned out of existence in the Marvel editorial version of nuking from orbit?

[Striderblack01]

So because people enjoy it, it's not totally messing with the entire history of the franchise.

This is exactly what I mean. You're jumping through miles of hoops to justify Hickman's work because it gives mutants a win. I think that is horrible writing. You seem to be under the impression that because the last writers didn't do a good job, Hickman taking a sledgehammer to everything is fine. I think that sets a horrible precedent.

But whatever. It's clear my protests to the Cult of Hickman are falling on ears that don't want to hear. Wake me up when Age of Moira is over and the actual X-Men are back, not the Inhumans 2.0 Hickman gave you.

Your protestations have been noted.

It's fine to not like this run, and it's fine to think this is retcon is one leap too many.
But conversations usually go better when you don't think of everyone who disagrees with you as being in a 'cult', or painting yourself as some kind of self-righteous Cassandra trying to save the people from themselves.

In general, when people really enjoy something you believe to be subpar or 'bad', it's best to not try to persuade them to hate it.
It's just not a good look, and life is too short for that.
Skip the arguments and let the people enjoy it.

Clearly, it's not for you.

[Theleviathan]

100% agree! It seems like most are willing to accept massive retcons and hand wave away anything that doesn't make sense just because mutants are seen as finally winning. After decades of being on the back foot and constant stories of extinction and genocide mutants now have their own nation and are on the ascendency. It doesn't matter to some how they got there, all that matters is it's a win for mutants. So the Hickman fans will justify, rationalize, hand wave and just outright ignore anything that questions how we got to this point. Basically don't ask questions, just accept it as is. But I wonder if mutants start to suffer some losses and setbacks will people still blindly accept the new status quo?

I would suggest people's excitement is not primarily about mutants winning....it's about the stories finally being new, fresh, and fun. The X-men haven't felt this way in decades.

Retcons are a meaningless price to pay for that. The stuff you're complaining about has been happening the last 20 years through every garbage story arch too. At least this time there appears to be some upside to it.