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  1. #5926
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    You pretty much have to give up. You'll drive yourself crazy. Now, you can hold writers to making good choices and characterizations and all of that, that's fair. But what harm does a retcon do? Upset continuity? Canon?

    Those things are as real as unicorns. Or as subjective as your favorite foods. You can't be writing about the same characters for 60 years without that stuff being incredibly flexible. So I'd suggest giving in to the necessity of that flexibility and appreciate the story being told for what it is. You don't have to, but I can't imagine truly enjoying comic book reading without recognizing the spongy nature of the lore.
    I don't think it's too much to ask for the most hyped writer in over ten years to be able to tell a story without having to rely on massive retcons to do it. Changing all of the stories to make yours fit isn't a good thing.

  2. #5927
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    Krakoa, International Law, Extradition, and Acts of War.

    So if Krakoa is a sovereign state, recognized by the UN and other countries, they will be faced with these issues.

    Let's say the U.S. cleans up some old security video from Norad and have proof of Kitty Pryde and Piotr Rasputin illegally inside one of the U.S. military's most secure facilities and demands they be turned over for prosecution.

    X-Men teams going into foreign countries and committing acts of war...sure they are destroying a Sentinel manufacturing plant....but they are illegally entering a foreign country and destroying a facility that countries feels is vital to its defense.

    Will the government of Krakoa just say "Ef off" and threaten to withhold the miracle drugs?

    They wanted a recognized government...and there are consequences of that.

  3. #5928
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    I don't think it's too much to ask for the most hyped writer in over ten years to be able to tell a story without having to rely on massive retcons to do it. Changing all of the stories to make yours fit isn't a good thing.
    I don't know how you expect to get fresh, new stories without some degree of retcon. You'll get constant retreads of the same stories already told. Or you'll get what Morrison did - bastardize the characters to fit the story you want to tell. Or some other affront.

    And, I think it's only fair to point out, he didn't change "all the stories". He retconned their context and changed a few, but as far as retcons go this might be one of the least world-altering ones I've ever seen.

    I want comics to use the characters I love in fresh, exciting, and fun new ways. I simply acknowledge that will require some retcons and changes to accomplish it. I gladly sacrifice that.

  4. #5929

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Krakoa, International Law, Extradition, and Acts of War.

    So if Krakoa is a sovereign state, recognized by the UN and other countries, they will be faced with these issues.

    Let's say the U.S. cleans up some old security video from Norad and have proof of Kitty Pryde and Piotr Rasputin illegally inside one of the U.S. military's most secure facilities and demands they be turned over for prosecution.

    X-Men teams going into foreign countries and committing acts of war...sure they are destroying a Sentinel manufacturing plant....but they are illegally entering a foreign country and destroying a facility that countries feels is vital to its defense.

    Will the government of Krakoa just say "Ef off" and threaten to withhold the miracle drugs?

    They wanted a recognized government...and there are consequences of that.
    They have amnesty. Every mutant has amnesty it was part of the conditions. Thereby they wouldn't be able to be charged for pass crimes or current ones until after the amnesty expires. We weren't told how long it exists though.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.
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  5. #5930
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Agreed. Magneto would have come aboard naturally without the retcon simply because Krakoa is a superior version of his Genosha.
    110% agreed! The plot problem Hickman wrote himself into was having Moira reboot at birth with the accumulated knowledge of all previous lives. He could have done some hand waving and have her return from her 616 continuity death (each life) without any retcon at all (and no -ugh- Shi'ar golem). Every single plot device to get us to HOX would still work perfectly?

  6. #5931

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesslow View Post
    110% agreed! The plot problem Hickman wrote himself into was having Moira reboot at birth with the accumulated knowledge of all previous lives. He could have done some hand waving and have her return from her 616 continuity death (each life) without any retcon at all (and no -ugh- Shi'ar golem). Every single plot device to get us to HOX would still work perfectly?
    So hickman should change his story so it works for you? You either like it or you don't, it's ok. But i do think it goes a bit far when we try to limit others creativity or image of things just so it works for them. The work is what it is. Everyone is amazing when retconning someone elses ideas to themselves.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.
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  7. #5932
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    I think House/Powers of X is the greatest X-Men story of all time. Normally, I'm a pretty conservative guy, not prone to grandiose statements, but, yeah, I like it more than the Dark Phoenix saga. When I read that old warhorse today, I find myself wondering: who was Jean Grey anyways, and why the heck should I care about her?

  8. #5933
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Agreed. Magneto would have come aboard naturally without the retcon simply because Krakoa is a superior version of his Genosha.
    Moira was the one that implanted ideas of mutant strongholds in Magneto’s mind in the first place.

  9. #5934
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    I have a question about House of X #6. On the 6th page of the actual comic, who is that meant to be in the 3rd panel down.

  10. #5935
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotofanatic28 View Post
    I have a question about House of X #6. On the 6th page of the actual comic, who is that meant to be in the 3rd panel down.
    young Xavier at some hippie dippy fair (probably stoned) enjoying watching birds fly around
    GrindrStone(D)

  11. #5936
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    If there's no retcons, Moira remains the same as she did in the last 20 years- dead and absolutely irrelevant to the franchise, and there's no story at all. Perhaps we should have continued with Rosenberg then.

  12. #5937
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Moira was the one that implanted ideas of mutant strongholds in Magneto’s mind in the first place.
    Which is an unnecessary retcon.

  13. #5938
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    So hickman should change his story so it works for you? You either like it or you don't, it's ok. But i do think it goes a bit far when we try to limit others creativity or image of things just so it works for them. The work is what it is. Everyone is amazing when retconning someone elses ideas to themselves.
    Good writers shouldn't need retcons. A retcon shouldn't be the hammer Marvel employs it as. It should be a last resort to fix something glaring and and problematic. Rectonning Xorneto was a needed step to fix that horrible "herding humans into ovens" problem. Retconning Jean to not be the one who killed the D'Bari was needed to allow the character to be used again.

    But in this case the retcon is "Hickman wanted to tell his story, and needed to make it happen no matter what it took". That's an extremely poor use of the tool.

  14. #5939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    If there's no retcons, Moira remains the same as she did in the last 20 years- dead and absolutely irrelevant to the franchise, and there's no story at all. Perhaps we should have continued with Rosenberg then.
    Or maybe... just maybe... and hear me out because it's a crazy idea...

    Hickman tells a story that doesn't require massive retcons and characters acting weird in order to work. I know it's a lot to ask of the most anticipated writer since Morrison, but somehow I think he could do it. Might just be me.

  15. #5940

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvelman View Post
    I think House/Powers of X is the greatest X-Men story of all time. Normally, I'm a pretty conservative guy, not prone to grandiose statements, but, yeah, I like it more than the Dark Phoenix saga. When I read that old warhorse today, I find myself wondering: who was Jean Grey anyways, and why the heck should I care about her?
    It is a great story that is looking to set up even greater and epic stories.
    I'm excited.

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