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  1. #5836

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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Hickman's "victory" was never foreshadowed, never mentioned, and just happens out of nowhere with virtually zero resistance. Mutants go from "about to be extinct" to "undisputed masters of planet Earth" in a mini. If you don't see how that's a massive storytelling problem, especially for the mainline universe, I don't know what to tell you.

    The rest of your issues with my post are nitpicks. My point stands.

    As of right now, there is zero reason why the mutants don't just take over the planet. Their entire army is functionally immortal, they have no less than 15 mutants that could destroy entire countries by themselves, and the humans have shown that they absolutely deserve to be annihilated with around 80% of the humans being overt racists that even Fox News would ask them to tone it back a bit. When the only reason the plot doesn't end is "because the writer doesn't want it to"... THAT'S BAD WRITING.
    I look at it as Hickman taking everything that has been written since, heck, lets go all the way back to the attack on the Massachusetts Academy and move forward from there. So many children, adults, families dead just because they are mutants. The X-Men keep fighting the good fight but they keep getting forced back to retreat further and further.

    After decimation they were confined to the Xavier Institute where the O.N.E. was slowly being corrupted by to not assist mutants but to actually end them. Sure there were a few good soldiers in the O.N.E. and even Val Cooper meant well at first, but eventually it just became an armed camp to detain the mutants indefinitely.

    The X-Men packed up and moved operations to San Francisco but then they were attacked again and again. They allied with Namor and moved operations to Utopia and established what they hoped would be an independent nation under the protection of Atlantis. They kept getting attacked until they were torn apart by internal factions that wanted to stop fighting and the other faction that wanted to keep fighting with everything they had.

    This was definitely poor writing, it was done to make Scott and Emma's Utopia team look like the bad guys and Logan and the Jean Grey School were the good mutants who behave themselves and don't stir up things like resistance and revolution against oppression, they just want to be good mutants and stay in their space and not offend the humans. They aren't those revolutionary mutants who live on Utopia that want freedom and rights for mutants. Sorry, my bias against Logan and his stupid decision to split everyone up screams hypocrisy for me because he still ran X-Force and he still killed people.

    Then when the Phoenix was returning to Earth, Scott and Emma had concerns but on the other hand they thought that this might be the one and only chance to undo the decimation so they encouraged Hope to try and be the host of the Phoenix (even though Emma thought Hope was totally the wrong person).

    The Avengers attacked Utopia and destroyed the island and went to war with the X-Men. Even some of the people who were with Wolverine thought that the Avengers were nothing more than agents of the government trying to detain and contain mutants and ended up joining Scott's team. In the end after the idiot Tony Stark caused the Phoenix Five, when the Phoenix finally merged with Hope, omg, Scott was right and the Phoenix undid the Decimation. Big surprise.

    Ever since then it just kept getting bleaker and bleaker. Everyone was building Sentinels because suddenly scary mutants were appearing all over the world again. SHIELD and other government agents were deploying as soon as a new mutant was detected so they could contain these dangerous young children who Scott and Emma just wanted to teach to use their powers.

    Then when Scott finally decided to change tactics and go for a more peaceful protest route (the march on Washington) just before Secret Wars II, right after the Terrigen Mists were killing mutants and Scott died on Muir Island in the initial poisoning event along with everyone else. In order to get the Inhumans to get rid of the clouds the X-Men actually had to force the Inhumans into War because Medussa didn't want to destroy her precious mutant killing clouds.

    Then you have Hydra take over North America and tell Emma Frost that if she doesn't keep her mutants in line in New Tian then Hydra Captain America is going to round them all up and kill them all.

    Then you have a Senator of the United States fund an operation to unleash Sentinels and eventually a reformed Legacy Virus on mutants (X-Men Gold).

    In X-Men Red you have Jean Grey leading her team as Cassandra Nova just stokes up pre-existing human hatred of mutants to the max and encourages humans to hunt and kill as many mutants as possible.

    Then a mutant hating fanatic leads his team in an attack on the X-Men to try and ensure that they never gain freedom and rights for mutants ever and to guarantee his future where mutants are either killed or permanently enslaved by humans.

    Then after the majority of the X-Men disappear from the world the human governments are emboldened and of their own volition they move to purge the entire planet of mutants by using the cure to get rid of the X-Gene forever. Any mutants that would refuse the cure would be apprehended and tortured till they participate or killed.

    After all that, Hickman has to start rebuilding the story of the X-Men. So what do you do with that as a writer. If you want to change the story you have to change the terms of the story. The first step is to change the status of the mutants so that they aren't running and retreating all the time, you need to give them the potential to be seen as equal with humans, so you give them a nation, but this time it is done properly, instead of using the threat of force, you offer a carrot of medicines to help the world and in exchange you just want legal recognition of the new nation.

    The way that the X-Men are changed is that they are now the military of Krakoa. Each group represents a different military division or a different department in Krakoa.

    That doesn't mean they won't be heroes and help the world, it means that they have a responsibility to defend and protect their homeland and their people.

    Heck, they even pass a law that makes it illegal under the constitution of Krakoa to murder a human. So even though they granted amnesty to most of their villains, those villains are still expected to adhere to military command of Krakoa (Sabretooth was on a military op with a no kill order issued), and they have to adhere to the constitutional laws set forth by the Quiet Council of Krakoa. Sabretooth violated the military command not to kill on his mission and he was technically court martialed as an agent of the Krakoan armed forces and sentenced to life in prison for murdering those humans. People get into the whole whether he was being retroactively charged, he was an agent of the military and he was told not to kill on the mission, he violated a no kill order and that would lead to a life sentence for any soldier disobeying a direct order from his commander and killing people indiscriminately. Sabretooth agreed to the chain of command and he can be tried under the military rules of the chain of command rather than the civilian laws that were enacted later by the council.

    I guess it depends on what you want, but Hickman is stuck with decades of stories showing the increasing persecution and genocide of mutants in the Marvel Universe. It's gotten so bad that the mutants were nearly completely exterminated only 8 months ago.

    So I give Hickman kudos for finding a way to give the mutants a new and more hopeful direction. You can see that there are some threads of stories to come that may challenge the stability of Krakoa, but it's very possible that the nation, it's people, and the X-Men will rise to this challenge and successfully come out this with the nation of Krakoa intact in the Marvel Universe.
    We are MUTANT..Krakoa, FOREVER!!! “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

  2. #5837
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Is the plot holes any bigger than other X-men story? You literally have the avatar of character if we sat down with a little critical thinking wouldn't sniff being near the X-men IvX and Rosenberg Uncanny happened. I am just saying the same way you will go to bat for Emma,We are going to bat for general elements of the story.

    I am not mad people for disagreeing the story is design to do this, But the absolute argument of Good and Evil are silly in discussing this story and they are some people doing that and plus they are some people in pockets of pretty insane/borderline near racist arguments in defense of their point of view. I am fine with you and others feel discomfort and mistrust of what is happening because that is what is suppose to be happening. The problem begins we people try to go X-men are definitively evil, No the X-men are doing good but some questionable things in the name of good. Robin Hood is a clear hero but Robin Hood was stealing and breaking the law. That is where this story is playing, I don't need my heroes to always have the Moral high ground. I always bring the atomic bomb because it is one of clearest , "Good things" that did a really messed up thing.

    Yes you are supposed to feel uncomfortable with things, No those things don't total define everything that is happening. The overall picture is imo clearly more good than bad.
    In a fair and just world, Emma Frost would have been executed years ago. The same could be said of about 40% of the X-Men. Not sure your point there.

    Having one or two morally grey characters is one thing. Spawn or The Punisher can be fun in small doses. But having the entire X-Men be a nebulous organization with unclear motives headed by some of the most questionable mutants to ever walk the 616 Earth gives the audience no one to relate to and no one to cheer for. It all comes off as revenge porn for the people sick of the X-Men getting the wrong end of the Marvel story stick for so long. And that's fine if that's what you want. But for everyone who wants to see more than just that, it falls far short.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  3. #5838
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loke13 View Post
    I like Hickman as a writer he's probably one of my favorite comic book writers at the moment and I do love what he's doing with the X-Men however that doesn't make me some mindless drone/Hickman fanboy as you keep on insinuating with every poster that that has a problem with your hyperbolic hate boner for what he's doing. I have had several criticism with HoX and PoX but for me the pros far out weigh the cons.
    See, when you generalize every person who disagrees with Hickman (like you did in your last post), it can be hard to tell.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  4. #5839
    It's no dream... I'm real Silver Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    In a fair and just world, Emma Frost would have been executed years ago. The same could be said of about 40% of the X-Men. Not sure your point there.

    Having one or two morally grey characters is one thing. Spawn or The Punisher can be fun in small doses. But having the entire X-Men be a nebulous organization with unclear motives headed by some of the most questionable mutants to ever walk the 616 Earth gives the audience no one to relate to and no one to cheer for. It all comes off as revenge porn for the people sick of the X-Men getting the wrong end of the Marvel story stick for so long. And that's fine if that's what you want. But for everyone who wants to see more than just that, it falls far short.
    I agree and that's where X-fandom is divided right now but let the story play out.

    One thing is for sure, everybody is talking about Marvel's Merry Mutants, fictional and real people alike.
    "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."- Jesus
    John 14:6

  5. #5840

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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    In a fair and just world, Emma Frost would have been executed years ago. The same could be said of about 40% of the X-Men. Not sure your point there.

    Having one or two morally grey characters is one thing. Spawn or The Punisher can be fun in small doses. But having the entire X-Men be a nebulous organization with unclear motives headed by some of the most questionable mutants to ever walk the 616 Earth gives the audience no one to relate to and no one to cheer for. It all comes off as revenge porn for the people sick of the X-Men getting the wrong end of the Marvel story stick for so long. And that's fine if that's what you want. But for everyone who wants to see more than just that, it falls far short.
    They aren't trying to wage war with humans though, they are attempting to sign as many peace and trade treaties as possible. The X-Men are part of the armed forces of Krakoa, but that doesn't mean the aren't heroes or that they can't be heroes to the world at large, it just means that part of their core job is to protect and defend the nation of Krakoa and the citizens of Krakoa.

    Amnesty for villains is not a Carte blanche for them to stay as villains. They agree to come to Krakoa and be granted citizenship. In exchange their past criminal records are expunged, but they are expected to adhere to the laws of Krakoa and participate in the nation of Krakoa as legal abiding citizens.

    The council has representatives of different factions from the mutant world, and it's balanced equally with heroes and ex-villains. Jean, Storm, Kurt, and Emma balanced against Sebastian, Mystique, Sinister, and Exodus. Technically Magneto and Charles are supposed to balance Apocalypse. Emma made a move to push the council a bit more to Jean, Storm, and Kurt's side of the table by electing Kitty Pryde as the 3rd Hellfire Chair which weights the council to the hero side.

    I am quite sure that some of these villains who were granted Amnesty will make a move against the nation, council, and the people of Krakoa. However, surprisingly a lot of the former villains will probably behave as upstanding citizens, you might even catch a former villain entertaining children and babysitting while everyone else enjoys the big party (Paris/Exodus).

    Are there flaws in the new nation of Krakoa, yeah there are, I agree with you. There are even hints that make me not trust Erik and Charles, and I certainly don't trust Sinister or Mystique. But there are a lot of strengths on Krakoa and the in the X-Men that could very well help them successfully weather these upcoming storms and agents of chaos in their midst.

    On the world stage the mutants are acting as any nation would they are defending and protecting their people. The Orchis facility in X-Men #1 is a known terrorist cell (Osama Bin Laden's base) and the Krakoan government has deployed it's military special forces (X-Men) to take this terrorist cell out before they can proceed with their imminent genocidal attack on Krakoa.
    We are MUTANT..Krakoa, FOREVER!!! “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

  6. #5841
    Astonishing Member Tazpocalapse's Avatar
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    Thought the series was a good way to bring the X-universe forward and out of the usual cycles. The Moira reveal is a game changer that can be reset. This does make me look at things differently and can you have yourself second guessing some of the main players. Not sure how i feel about the x-men using the plant to leverage their position. My main issue is with it curing mental illness. What does this mean for Legion, or other mutants and super humans. Also the issue of family conflicts of interest could be a issue. Moira not wanting any Pre-cogs in Krakoa could be a problem.

  7. #5842
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Phoenix View Post
    I'm not to particular with the whole "mutants vs humanity" plot (bored with it actually) that seems to be the overall theme Marvel wants to go with going forward. Hickman seems like he has really put thought and heart into the story he is trying to tell and I do appreciate that.

    No, this isn't the X-Men I have come to know and love but circumstances within the narrative have brought them to where they are now so... I will give the story a chance.

    It's nothing to lose sleep over to those who are disturbed about this storyline... this is fiction after all.
    I can totally understand why people may be concerned that the X-Men may jump to considerably unethical territory despite the best of stated intentions, including throwing a mutant into a pit despite how some may argue that it was 100% justified, but that said, I won't be accusing of the X-Men going off the rails until there's evidence shown that proves that they went off it. Either one has gone off the rails or has stayed on track, and until such a time comes that they've shown to have majorly screwed up with what they've built up with big time, then I'll assume for the time being that what they're doing is being unselfishly done with the best of intentions on the whole. And that they'll continue to protect a world that has hate and fear in it, but at the same time not letting the hate and fear prevent them from protecting the world more while also forging a relatively decent existence in potentially developing their standing in the world that at least a few of the humans coming to genuinely respect. I'd definitely have varied and complex relationships over having the majority of humans commit mass genocide against them over and over and over again. The last several years have felt quite tired and unapproachable and I think I'm allowed to at least desire some more preferable developments that may help the series in the long run.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 10-12-2019 at 12:49 PM.

  8. #5843
    Bad Guy CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazpocalapse View Post
    Thought the series was a good way to bring the X-universe forward and out of the usual cycles. The Moira reveal is a game changer that can be reset. This does make me look at things differently and can you have yourself second guessing some of the main players. Not sure how i feel about the x-men using the plant to leverage their position. My main issue is with it curing mental illness. What does this mean for Legion, or other mutants and super humans. Also the issue of family conflicts of interest could be a issue. Moira not wanting any Pre-cogs in Krakoa could be a problem.
    Well Legions mental illness his(fractured psyche due to the vastness of his powers) has been cured since the post AVX books.

    Writers just choose to ignore it just like Si Spurriers run.

  9. #5844
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    But having the entire X-Men be a nebulous organization with unclear motives headed by some of the most questionable mutants to ever walk the 616 Earth gives the audience no one to relate to and no one to cheer for. It all comes off as revenge porn for the people sick of the X-Men getting the wrong end of the Marvel story stick for so long. And that's fine if that's what you want. But for everyone who wants to see more than just that, it falls far short.
    And that is where you guys will end up being wrong, the story is going to continue to show the X-men as heroic. This run is going to give you a lot the cheer about. But that is a wait and see thing and biggest issue the majority of people work up about bad stuff that hasn't happened yet.

    I guess I am going have agree to disagree with people I don't mind the X-men the organization being "Emma" aka Grey area(in fact I think have been grey for a long awhile). Here thing which I know you understand as Emma fan, Wolverine and Emma are Grey area characters here is the thing no matter how many people Wolverine kills they will orientate him to good and he feels and is treated like a good guy, While with Emma you know what happens they slant her to evil. I get where you guys are coming from it is just that like Batman or Wolverine I think they are going to orientate the X-men grey to the good side.

    I guess in people's minds the X-men have been this moral upright group and this run status quo takes it too far away from its roots. I think the X-men since Claremont have operated in shades of grey and in more recent years have dabbled in this play ground. At this point, the X-men have been more freedom fighters/rebels than superheroes. And some of you guys have always seen the X-men as unjustly persecuted by the government and that was the moral high ground and can't reconcile an X-men organization that is justifiable feared by humans. I have always loosely said that X-men have some parallels to the Black Panther party, Now the X-men have a little more parallels to it. I guess see what is bothering people your X-men has a hint of Antifa and Black Panther Party in it now.

  10. #5845
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    I have complained over and over the racism in Marvel doesn't make any sense.
    And that just goes to show how bad the writers over time had gotten in handling the worldbuilding of Earth-616 of how mutants are treated relative to the non-mutant heroes.

  11. #5846
    Spectacular Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    And that just goes to show how bad the writers over time had gotten in handling the worldbuilding of Earth-616 of how mutants are treated relative to the non-mutant heroes.
    People need to realize that it is unfair to blame the mutant problems in the avengers, fantastic four and in general, in most humanity.

    But at the same time, justify the karma houdini that several xmen mutant villains are having right now. It is a forced narrative.

    Both are plot holes that you, as a reader, need to work around.

    As killerbee said, racism in Marvel Universe makes little sense.

  12. #5847
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    All you have guys have is mutants "feel" cultish and Marvel equivalent of mutants running saying "Black girl magic".
    this cracked me the eFF UP! FOR some reason I can totally see Anole and Cypher runnin around whispering this in people's ears
    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    I guess see what is bothering people your X-men has a hint of Antifa and Black Panther Party in it now.
    YAS! It would KNOCK the ROCK that's LOCKED in my SOCKS out if the X-Men's Black Panthers and Antifa hints grew Darker
    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    And that just goes to show how bad the writers over time had gotten in handling the worldbuilding of Earth-616 of how mutants are treated relative to the non-mutant heroes.
    Ohh the good ol' days when Mutants... weren't being persecuted??
    GrindrStone(D)

  13. #5848
    Mighty Member tuck frump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    But the KKK doesn't run England, France, Germany, Italy, or Japan like it does in in 616.
    Yeah this is extremely debatable right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    And that just goes to show how bad the writers over time had gotten in handling the worldbuilding of Earth-616 of how mutants are treated relative to the non-mutant heroes.
    As opposed to very logical and fact based real life racism? It's supposed to be hypocritical and stupid.

  14. #5849
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Hickman's "victory" was never foreshadowed, never mentioned, and just happens out of nowhere with virtually zero resistance. Mutants go from "about to be extinct" to "undisputed masters of planet Earth" in a mini. If you don't see how that's a massive storytelling problem, especially for the mainline universe, I don't know what to tell you..
    Except, of course, Hickman spends 12 issues showing that it wasn't out nowhere and was being built for literally thousands of years.

  15. #5850
    Spectacular Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    As opposed to very logical and fact based real life racism? It's supposed to be hypocritical and stupid.
    16 million, wipeout in a single night, nobody cares, yeah sure, nobody is worried. Realistic.

    That Mutant scares me but i am perfectly ok with that other Mutant who is murdering people.

    At the end of the day is a comic book, it will be as good or stupid as the writer wants.

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