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  1. #4876
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I know people have been debating whether or not the clones have souls... for what it's worth, we can see in the example of Layla Miller what resurrection without a soul looks like, and this doesn't seem to be like her resurrections.
    They obviously have souls. the real question is if it's the same one or not. imagine heaven and hell exist (in the marvel universe they do exist) and cyclops dies and gets cloned through Krakoa 10 times. Does that mean there are 10 Cyclops in heaven or hell? or not even one?

  2. #4877
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    Quote Originally Posted by lurkerforyears View Post
    They obviously have souls. the real question is if it's the same one or not. imagine heaven and hell exist (in the marvel universe they do exist) and cyclops dies and gets cloned through Krakoa 10 times. Does that mean there are 10 Cyclops in heaven or hell? or not even one?
    This is a question best left to the poor demon/angel who has to do the paperwork.

    That being said, this method of resurrection is interesting because so long as no one is killed too many times, it means that you aren't ripping souls out of the afterlife too often and thus won't alert the magical and cosmic authorities too soon.

  3. #4878
    Astonishing Member Beetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lurkerforyears View Post
    They obviously have souls. the real question is if it's the same one or not. imagine heaven and hell exist (in the marvel universe they do exist) and cyclops dies and gets cloned through Krakoa 10 times. Does that mean there are 10 Cyclops in heaven or hell? or not even one?
    Is Hell just full of Marauders clones?

  4. #4879
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetle View Post
    Is Hell just full of Marauders clones?
    this issue was treated in Bunn's Magneto
    Magneto kills every Marauder, except Scalphunter (he amputates his extremities, cauterizes them so they wont grow back from their healing factor, leaves him in a hospital)

    The Marauders, in panic, afraid, trying to escape from Magneto, talk among themselves and say they are afraid to die, and that they consider it dying for real, if they die and Sinister makes a new clone, that clone won't be themselves, it will be someone else.
    They end up dying, and Magneto creates New Marauders morally programmed to protect mutantkind. And that is forgotten and never treated again.

    It was also treated in a Nightcrawler Scalphunter story after M Day, in which Nightcrawler surprised and attacks a retired Scalphunter who was working in a food truck on the road, he gives Scalphunter a speech about the soul, and if clones have souls, it was a good mini story.

    This Krakoa resurrection thing seems morally simplified. Hickman and Xavier don't believe in the soul.

  5. #4880
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Or...the Sinister/Maruaders "soul" issue comes across as too...preachy/morally complex?
    Just as there is no one theory on what a soul is, how it originates, where does it go after death...
    There's no one basic theory every writer must follow...HiX-Man just chose a more simplified idea for the sake of moving the story along and not getting bogged down in some theoretical philosophizing...that doesn't mean he doesn't believe in a soul. (Contrary to your statement, he does...but obviouslynot in the same way as you).
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 09-21-2019 at 07:06 AM.

  6. #4881
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Well Belasco said X-23 has a soul it just smells of tech

  7. #4882

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Well Belasco said X-23 has a soul it just smells of tech
    I think the spark of life is the soul. The energy that coalesces in our cells and unifies those cells into a single living organism, I think that energy is a part of what the soul is.

    I believe that yes clones have souls too, but whether they have the original soul is questionable. Ben Reilly is a clone of Peter Parker and I believe Ben has a soul, but not the same soul Peter has.

    I believe that Laura has her own soul, independent of Logan.

    But what happens if you push the core identity of a being into a body at the moment of animation, if that person is dead but the sum of all their identity, personality, and animus is transferred into another body, could that perhaps also transfer their soul too. Is that core identity itself the soul of the person?

    The duplicates that were created by the 5 had a spiritual element to it, but also there was the presence of at least two mutants that can alter reality. Proteus, and Hope who can use and guide Proteus' powers. Working in tandem and linking all 5 mutant powers together, and then having Xavier use Cerebro to transfer the core identity into the mix, is it possible that the original soul is pulled back into the world because all of the conditions are properly in place for it to return.

    Obvious a duplicate that is created while the original is alive would have a different soul and a different core identity. It might believe it is the original at first, but eventually it would find itself not feeling exactly the same. Finding out that it is a duplicate would probably shattering to his psyche. But that duplicate has a soul too, they just don't have the original soul.

    All of this even depends a little on your own religious beliefs, do all souls have individuality? Or do you believe we part of a great oneness and are linked in infinite representations of that oneness. Perhaps when we die we just become part of the universal cosmic life force and our sum identity and memories become part of the overall experience of the entire universal energy.

    There is also the atheist perspective that life simply ends at death and there is no afterlife. This is the base cycle of existence, there is life, there is death, and there is rebirth in that new forms of life rise from our death. When we die our decomposing body provide the nutrients for the life that follows us. We live on because we become part of the life that follows us, but not because our core identity remained after our death.

    In the Marvel Universe there does appear to be some afterlife and your soul can go to places where your faith and belief leads you. The Asgardians represent a path, the Seraphim (the Angels) represent a path, but these so called higher beings are not servants of God, they are in a sense evolved beings who behave like Gods. They are caretakers of some of the entrances to the afterlife, be it the paradise of Valhalla or Heaven, or the places of evil like Hel, Hell, or the Demonic Underworld.

    Jane Foster was a servant of Asgard so when she died the gates of Valhalla opened for her. Now she has become a Valkyrie because in her life she has served Asgard and that is where her beliefs have taken her. Dani Moonstar is the same, she believes in Native American religion and culture, however, she made herself of service to Asgard and through that service she has become linked to Valhalla as one of it's guardians a Valkyrie. Because Dani took on this responsibility in her life, to guard the gates of Valhalla, when she dies she will more than likely pass into Valhalla rather than the realms of the Grandfather Spirit.

    There is so much complexity to it, even in Marvel Comics. It's possible that the soul lingers for a few days after death, and then it might sense on Krakoa this egg that contains a vessel that perfectly matches it's previous vessel, so rather than moving on to the afterlife that soul chooses to inhabit this new vessel that so closely matches the previous one. It helps when there are powerful mutants creating a spiritual connection to the universe working together that encourages that soul to take the replacement vessel and be reborn again.

  8. #4883
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    I think the spark of life is the soul. The energy that coalesces in our cells and unifies those cells into a single living organism, I think that energy is a part of what the soul is.

    I believe that yes clones have souls too, but whether they have the original soul is questionable. Ben Reilly is a clone of Peter Parker and I believe Ben has a soul, but not the same soul Peter has.

    I believe that Laura has her own soul, independent of Logan.

    But what happens if you push the core identity of a being into a body at the moment of animation, if that person is dead but the sum of all their identity, personality, and animus is transferred into another body, could that perhaps also transfer their soul too. Is that core identity itself the soul of the person?

    The duplicates that were created by the 5 had a spiritual element to it, but also there was the presence of at least two mutants that can alter reality. Proteus, and Hope who can use and guide Proteus' powers. Working in tandem and linking all 5 mutant powers together, and then having Xavier use Cerebro to transfer the core identity into the mix, is it possible that the original soul is pulled back into the world because all of the conditions are properly in place for it to return.

    Obvious a duplicate that is created while the original is alive would have a different soul and a different core identity. It might believe it is the original at first, but eventually it would find itself not feeling exactly the same. Finding out that it is a duplicate would probably shattering to his psyche. But that duplicate has a soul too, they just don't have the original soul.

    All of this even depends a little on your own religious beliefs, do all souls have individuality? Or do you believe we part of a great oneness and are linked in infinite representations of that oneness. Perhaps when we die we just become part of the universal cosmic life force and our sum identity and memories become part of the overall experience of the entire universal energy.

    There is also the atheist perspective that life simply ends at death and there is no afterlife. This is the base cycle of existence, there is life, there is death, and there is rebirth in that new forms of life rise from our death. When we die our decomposing body provide the nutrients for the life that follows us. We live on because we become part of the life that follows us, but not because our core identity remained after our death.

    In the Marvel Universe there does appear to be some afterlife and your soul can go to places where your faith and belief leads you. The Asgardians represent a path, the Seraphim (the Angels) represent a path, but these so called higher beings are not servants of God, they are in a sense evolved beings who behave like Gods. They are caretakers of some of the entrances to the afterlife, be it the paradise of Valhalla or Heaven, or the places of evil like Hel, Hell, or the Demonic Underworld.

    Jane Foster was a servant of Asgard so when she died the gates of Valhalla opened for her. Now she has become a Valkyrie because in her life she has served Asgard and that is where her beliefs have taken her. Dani Moonstar is the same, she believes in Native American religion and culture, however, she made herself of service to Asgard and through that service she has become linked to Valhalla as one of it's guardians a Valkyrie. Because Dani took on this responsibility in her life, to guard the gates of Valhalla, when she dies she will more than likely pass into Valhalla rather than the realms of the Grandfather Spirit.

    There is so much complexity to it, even in Marvel Comics. It's possible that the soul lingers for a few days after death, and then it might sense on Krakoa this egg that contains a vessel that perfectly matches it's previous vessel, so rather than moving on to the afterlife that soul chooses to inhabit this new vessel that so closely matches the previous one. It helps when there are powerful mutants creating a spiritual connection to the universe working together that encourages that soul to take the replacement vessel and be reborn again.
    Great post. Get ready to have to copy and paste it over and over tho.

  9. #4884
    Fantastic Member Stormultt Divine's Avatar
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    A 'Krakoa' title would be nice.

    Just to follow different mutants and how things on Krakoa are.
    I'd like to explore the island and see what they have built and how certain mutants are reacting to their new home.

  10. #4885
    Fantastic Member FIGHT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormultt Divine View Post
    A 'Krakoa' title would be nice.

    Just to follow different mutants and how things on Krakoa are.
    I'd like to explore the island and see what they have built and how certain mutants are reacting to their new home.
    That should definitely happen.

  11. #4886

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Great post. Get ready to have to copy and paste it over and over tho.
    I love esoteric discussions about Religion and Politics. Maybe that's the appeal of the X-Men, the more complex stories of the X-Men always have these nuances of Religion and Politics that you don't always find in other comics. Even when I occasionally read other books, I always come back to the X-books as my favourite. Of all the comic characters the X-Men aren't really heroes precisely, they are "people" who have powers and that can go in a lot of different directions. They are a "people" who have suffered from horrible oppression, bigotry, and genocide. The story of mutants reflects back to us the story of a lot of oppressed people in our world, the Jews; the Africans; the Gypsy's; the Native Americans; the Aborigines of Australia; the Maori of New Zealand; Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender (LGBT); many Asian countries like Korea and Vietnam; many Arabic nations going back to colonialism and oppression that was brought down during the crusades.

    Another great example is the oppression of women by Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. One of the greatest crimes of the Catholic domination was the Inquisition which mostly targeted women, particularly any woman who practised forms of herbal medicine that were not approved by the Catholic church. The Spanish Catholics primarily targeted any woman who practised medicine under the old Gaelic Druidism and Wicca faiths.

    Because the Mutants stand in as an allegory for racism, sexism, and bigotry that has occurred over our history, it creates for some dynamic stories, but it also stirs all of us into some very interesting discussions.

    There is a reason that the X-books Forum on this web site has more people visiting than any other area, because the stories of the mutants resonate with a lot of people, in both good and bad ways.

    Jonathan Hickman is done exactly what he should do, he has inspired discussion by creating a complex story where it's hard to find the heroes and the villains and where you can actually see and even empathize a little with both sides of underlying conflict. It's because this isn't a story about Super Heroes! This is a story about a "People", a people who are called "Mutants".

  12. #4887
    Extraordinary Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    I love esoteric discussions about Religion and Politics. Maybe that's the appeal of the X-Men, the more complex stories of the X-Men always have these nuances of Religion and Politics that you don't always find in other comics. Even when I occasionally read other books, I always come back to the X-books as my favourite. Of all the comic characters the X-Men aren't really heroes precisely, they are "people" who have powers and that can go in a lot of different directions. They are a "people" who have suffered from horrible oppression, bigotry, and genocide. The story of mutants reflects back to us the story of a lot of oppressed people in our world, the Jews; the Africans; the Gypsy's; the Native Americans; the Aborigines of Australia; the Maori of New Zealand; Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender (LGBT); many Asian countries like Korea and Vietnam; many Arabic nations going back to colonialism and oppression that was brought down during the crusades.

    Another great example is the oppression of women by Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. One of the greatest crimes of the Catholic domination was the Inquisition which mostly targeted women, particularly any woman who practised forms of herbal medicine that were not approved by the Catholic church. The Spanish Catholics primarily targeted any woman who practised medicine under the old Gaelic Druidism and Wicca faiths.

    Because the Mutants stand in as an allegory for racism, sexism, and bigotry that has occurred over our history, it creates for some dynamic stories, but it also stirs all of us into some very interesting discussions.

    There is a reason that the X-books Forum on this web site has more people visiting than any other area, because the stories of the mutants resonate with a lot of people, in both good and bad ways.

    Jonathan Hickman is done exactly what he should do, he has inspired discussion by creating a complex story where it's hard to find the heroes and the villains and where you can actually see and even empathize a little with both sides of underlying conflict. It's because this isn't a story about Super Heroes! This is a story about a "People", a people who are called "Mutants".
    How am I supposed to pin all that to my signature?

  13. #4888
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    How am I supposed to pin all that to my signature?
    Simple! First, you'll have to zoom out your browser, or use some kind of similar method to get the entire post on your screen at once. Then, you'll take a screencap. Next, go into your image program and crop out every part of the image that isn't the post. Alright, now we'll have to use some form of image uploading website to extract a valid link. Imgur's always a good choice, but I always use my trusty Discord! So upload the image, and then use your platform's link feature to copy and paste a valid link. To be safe, let's open a new tab and use the link there to make sure it works. Okay, now it's showtime! Log onto CBR Community, and click "Settings" between "My Profile" and "Log Out." On this screen, you should be able to see "Edit Signature." Use your new link in the space provided, preview to make sure everything's okay, and then save changes. Voilą! The full post will be in your signature for any curious humanoid to click and discover! Hope that helps!

  14. #4889
    Extraordinary Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Simple! First, you'll have to zoom out your browser, or use some kind of similar method to get the entire post on your screen at once. Then, you'll take a screencap. Next, go into your image program and crop out every part of the image that isn't the post. Alright, now we'll have to use some form of image uploading website to extract a valid link. Imgur's always a good choice, but I always use my trusty Discord! So upload the image, and then use your platform's link feature to copy and paste a valid link. To be safe, let's open a new tab and use the link there to make sure it works. Okay, now it's showtime! Log onto CBR Community, and click "Settings" between "My Profile" and "Log Out." On this screen, you should be able to see "Edit Signature." Use your new link in the space provided, preview to make sure everything's okay, and then save changes. Voilą! The full post will be in your signature for any curious humanoid to click and discover! Hope that helps!
    Thank you, King. Once again, your wise words help guide my life in a new, more fulfilling direction.

  15. #4890
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    Some random thoughts I had

    1. I imagine they will kill off Gold Balls or Proteus when a majority of the mutants they want resurrected come back , I can't really see this Resurrection ritual as an ongoing thing .

    2. I have no clue why the Summers Brothers thing is bothering me but I was thinking maybe there is two more brothers (since The X-men always find a way to go back toward THE 05 , So a total of 5 Brothers). I was thinking they could make Adam-X , Havok's twin and just retcon his history to be a lie , Adam-X does look like a Havok/Wolverine hybrid character and their names are Alex & Adam it would easy. Now for the final brother I was thinking two ways 1. Gambit is a clone , chimera or son of The final brother , Sinister located him and tested on him creating Gambit from the result and hence why Gambit is easily persuaded back to the dark side (Similar to Goblin Queen) or 2. The final brother is older than Cyclops and is similar/the father to Gambit but not actually Gambit like the Witness (from Bishop's timeline) ad maybe escape from Sinister who then worked with Gambit because he thought he was him (I haven't thought this one all the way out lol). I also can see Corsair having a sister who possibly has children being another avenue.

    3. I'm sure the villains are going to be sequestered to the big empty part of Krakoa , where no one is allowed. There definitely not going to be apart of the general population plus I'm sure The X-Brig will return at some point.
    Last edited by Npresh24; 09-21-2019 at 10:47 AM.

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