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  1. #6061
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    See, I can understand why you want Xavier's dream to be abandoned... because you never understood it.

    Xavier's philosophy (at least in the comics) has been the Teddy Roosevelt status: speak softly, and carry a big stick. To not go out of their way to make lives harder for humans, but to be ready to defend themselves from humans. And that by only retaliating, they can show that mutant/human coexistence is possible.
    Thats not what is shown in the comics I'm afraid. Between Xavier's own ego, personal glory and networks his dream involved mutant and human coexistence by trying to placate racist humans by making them feel less threatened. And the phrasing you used is absolutely correct. It was to not inconvenience humans.

    Xavier had mutant protocols, he didn't have avenger protocols.

  2. #6062
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    So because people enjoy it, it's not totally messing with the entire history of the franchise.
    It isn’t messing with the entire history of the franchise. Again what makes you think so much has changed. From what I can see a few key characters have a subtly shifted motivation.

    This is exactly what I mean. You're jumping through miles of hoops to justify Hickman's work because it gives mutants a win.
    Pretty sure I am not jumping through hoops. I will leave that to the writers. I certainly don’t believe this gives the mutants a win.

    I think that is horrible writing. You seem to be under the impression that because the last writers didn't do a good job, Hickman taking a sledgehammer to everything is fine. I think that sets a horrible precedent.
    I think you may be mistaking me for another poster. I didn’t care for a couple of the recent runs but I was perfectly happy with quite a few recent runs that many hated. And there is no sledgehammer. What exactly makes you think this?

    But whatever. It's clear my protests to the Cult of Hickman are falling on ears that don't want to hear. Wake me up when Age of Moira is over and the actual X-Men are back, not the Inhumans 2.0 Hickman gave you.
    I am indeed a very big fan of Hickman, but I am a bigger fan of X-Men. This is a perfect storm for me. A fascinating innovative book by one of my all time favourite writers on one of my all time favourite properties. I am not going to apologise for that, but one of the reasons I am a fan is his approach to canon.

    Also you apparently dont fully understand what happened with the Inhumans. This was not his doing, he was setting up Fraction’s Inhumans which never transpired.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 10-13-2019 at 02:42 PM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  3. #6063
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Those are extremely small differences. The central idea of an island away from humans dedicated to protecting mutants is the exact same.
    It depends on the persons perspective, a strong case can be made that the X-Men have always existed on an island separated and protected from the rest of the world. Before Utopia the island was not as literal, but that very argument was used (often) about the X-Men and their mansion.

    In HoX Moira makes the claim "its not a dream if its real". Cool line, but the inverse is also true, if its not real its a dream. This matters because that is the truth is that the MU is not one where mutants and humans live together in harmony, it never has been. In a world where you lurch from genocide to genocide like a drunken frat boy, with generous side helpings of state sanctioned murder-bots or government sponsored ethnic cleansing as frequently as the MU does the idea of forting up will continually come around because it is the most rational response. You can't fight for equality or integration if you're dead.

    Its also heavily premature to declare that this is a redux of Utopia/Avalon/Island M because were still at the opening of the story not the end. That's like criticizing silver age stories that start with a Bank Robbery. Its also worth noting that there are more than enough seeds within the story to implicate that all is not well with Krakoa. The criticism would be more valid if this were the end of Hickman's run instead of its launching point.

    What I am, and a lot of other people seem to be, excited about with Hickman's run is not the weird island setting, its the reset. All of the doom and gloom and frankly depressing shit that has been bogging the books down for a long while have been cleverly pushed aside. Is it contrived? Yes. So what? Its well done, and all of the pieces that make up the X-Men (even some really damn obscure ones) have been picked up, put back together and put on the table to be played with. There is also a sense of fun in the stories that I personally haven't seen since before the Schism.
    Last edited by Kisinith; 10-13-2019 at 01:28 PM.

  4. #6064
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    It isn’t messing with the entire history of the franchise. Again what makes you think so much has changed. From what I can see a few key characters have a subtly shifted motivation.
    d.
    It changes everything Charles did since the start of x-men, it also changes Magneto since he was recruited.

    whole franchise changed
    Zethrimon unblock me

  5. #6065
    Incredible Member Domino_Dare-Doll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Thats not what is shown in the comics I'm afraid. Between Xavier's own ego, personal glory and networks his dream involved mutant and human coexistence by trying to placate racist humans by making them feel less threatened. And the phrasing you used is absolutely correct. It was to not inconvenience humans.

    Xavier had mutant protocols, he didn't have avenger protocols.
    I don't agree that he was trying to placate; education was Xavier's main goal. He wanted to appeal to people's better nature; that empathy would surely triumph and lead to a mutual understanding. I don't think that approach is foolish, nor should it be completely tossed out; mutants are still human, after all.

  6. #6066
    Fantastic Member houndsofluv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    See, I can understand why you want Xavier's dream to be abandoned... because you never understood it.

    Xavier's philosophy (at least in the comics) has been the Teddy Roosevelt status: speak softly, and carry a big stick. To not go out of their way to make lives harder for humans, but to be ready to defend themselves from humans. And that by only retaliating, they can show that mutant/human coexistence is possible.
    you could argue that Krakoa is in a sense a retaliation. The biggest of sticks. They were not only shut out from human society but actively targeted and for a time left on the point of extinction. So they built their own nation and drummed together their own political influence. Pow.

    This part of Xavier’s philosophy remains intact, that’s why it makes sense that he’s spearheading Krakoa. Its natural character progression - we don’t want to keep reading the same stories over and over, and to prevent that characters and their beliefs need to develop and change. This is a new take on the old dream.

    We were told from the start that’s what this would be. This may not be you, but I’ve seen people on here complaining about Hickman’s retcons redefining the xmen and Stories we already knew; all I can say is, dude, that’s how it wasn’t marketed from the start. It’s a new take on familiar elements. Never fear, nothing in comics is permanent.

  7. #6067
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Xavier originally hid the fact that he was a mutant, he had a school that was a front for his mutant academy. He would go on TV pretending to be human and try to appeal to humans as a human himself on behalf of mutants.

  8. #6068
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I don't agree that he was trying to placate; education was Xavier's main goal. He wanted to appeal to people's better nature; that empathy would surely triumph and lead to a mutual understanding. I don't think that approach is foolish, nor should it be completely tossed out; mutants are still human, after all.
    It's not like x-men were there to only use empathy, they also fought
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  9. #6069
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I don't agree that he was trying to placate; education was Xavier's main goal. He wanted to appeal to people's better nature; that empathy would surely triumph and lead to a mutual understanding. I don't think that approach is foolish, nor should it be completely tossed out; mutants are still human, after all.
    And how did he go about trying to educate humans? By pretending to be one himself. Arguably Beast was more effective at this then Xavier.

    Xavier also worked with the US government as did Shaw as did Mystique and Destiny but I'd make the argument they were just used and tossed away
    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 10-13-2019 at 01:32 PM.

  10. #6070
    Incredible Member Domino_Dare-Doll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    It's not like x-men were there to only use empathy, they also fought
    True, but that was used in tandem with the ideology they were fighting, don't forget; self defence and protection of those who can't protect themselves.

  11. #6071
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    The X-Men were reactive under Xavier until Storm where they were proactive.

    Actually Cable had another ethos

    Uncanny X-Men 273 and X-Force 19
    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 10-13-2019 at 01:46 PM.

  12. #6072
    Magneto-centric Rivka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I don't agree that he was trying to placate; education was Xavier's main goal. He wanted to appeal to people's better nature; that empathy would surely triumph and lead to a mutual understanding. I don't think that approach is foolish, nor should it be completely tossed out; mutants are still human, after all.
    Exactly! And yes, he hid his mutant nature and yes he had his flaws, but those don't invalidate pre-Cerebro-head Xavier's beliefs and goals. Education is the key, the content of what is taught as well as the setting for the lessons. Segregation is wrong not only because separate is not equal, but also because familiarity with all kinds of different people, people learning about others from all kinds of backgrounds, leads to understanding, mutual respect, and serves as an antidote for prejudice, stereotyping, and hate. Xavier seems to have gone full-on segregationist at this point, so I'm not sure what he hopes to accomplish along the lines of his old belief system. Xavier now seems to be saying, *We can't teach humans any more, we have nothing to learn from them (or Moloids, or Mermanus, or all the other hominins of Marvel Earth), we are complete unto ourselves and we are superior to all so if all of this leads to mutual misunderstanding, disrespect, intense fear and hate, runaway prejudice and stereotyping, and inevitable violence, I don't care and I no longer want to do anything about it because we are ARMED TO THE TEETH and we'll kick their asses, WE ARE HOMO SUPERIOR Inheritors of the Earth and Rulers of the Universe*.
    Last edited by Rivka; 10-13-2019 at 02:37 PM.

  13. #6073
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    It changes everything Charles did since the start of x-men, it also changes Magneto since he was recruited.

    whole franchise changed
    No it absolutely does not. All of his actions remain the same. What book are you reading? It isn’t this one, which goes out of its way to explain how Charles went through a long period of convincing and possibly even hints that he still doesn’t see eye to eye with Moira.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  14. #6074
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    It changes everything Charles did since the start of x-men, it also changes Magneto since he was recruited.

    whole franchise changed
    How so? I mean, you and PsychoEFrost both say this....but what specifically has changed? And how are those changes fundamentally changing the franchise?

    I see a lot of blanket statements about thongs like “everyone being on board from the start” and “changes to everyone” and “retcons are tools of last resort except for the many examples provided where that wasn’t the case”. To me, these read more like someone misunderstanding the books than like valid criticisms of the books.

    What changes has this book made that are so drastic that you feel the X-Men as a concept is no longer the same?

  15. #6075
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    How so? I mean, you and PsychoEFrost both say this....but what specifically has changed? And how are those changes fundamentally changing the franchise?

    I see a lot of blanket statements about thongs like “everyone being on board from the start” and “changes to everyone” and “retcons are tools of last resort except for the many examples provided where that wasn’t the case”. To me, these read more like someone misunderstanding the books than like valid criticisms of the books.

    What changes has this book made that are so drastic that you feel the X-Men as a concept is no longer the same?
    I'll respond when you don't frame arguments so disingenuously.

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