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  1. #6016
    Fantastic Member houndsofluv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    I'm totally down with the whole 'Different Strokes, I like it, so what' thingy, but for the life of me, I just can't figure out why anyone would even bother trying to deny that Krakoa is basically Genosha/Utopia with all the cheat codes turned on and literal lifetimes worth of spoilers/FAQs/Walkthroughs thanks to an insane retcon that totally came out of nowhere. Oh well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    That......makes it different, doesn’t it?
    ^^^^^^^^ it definitely does

    plus there’s the fact that there aren’t like 200 mutants anymore, hundreds of mutants are being resurrected on a weekly basis and they have the political leverage of krakoan miracle drugs on their side. Utopia was an attempt to hide/sequester themselves at their most vulnerable point, whereas with Krakoa now mutants are thriving and throwing themselves to the forefront of the global political and economic plane.
    this is a brand new beast.

  2. #6017
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    I'm saying people liking something is not a barometer for its success. And because of the nature of comic books, we won't know how successful HoX/PoX are for several years. Will it actually establish a status that sticks around, will it be undone by the next writer, or will it be retconned out of existence in the Marvel editorial version of nuking from orbit?
    Tomorrow isn't promised so personally i'm not really worrying about what the status of today's stories will be in five years but i wish more people worried what the status of our climate will be in five years so i guess in that sense i get it but i don't think most are worrying about that when they are spending their dollars now. Nor do i think they should. Why should i care how someone else product holds up after my lifetime of enjoying it or not enjoying it as a consumer. It would be different if my estate had a personal stake though for sure.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  3. #6018
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrezValentine View Post
    You'd think that would be obvious, but apparently it's an outlandish conclusion.
    Having the X-Men unilaterally declare Xavier's dream to be completely dead may be fresh and new, but I would hardly call it "fun".
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  4. #6019
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    I'm totally down with the whole 'Different Strokes, I like it, so what' thingy, but for the life of me, I just can't figure out why anyone would even bother trying to deny that Krakoa is basically Genosha/Utopia with all the cheat codes turned on and literal lifetimes worth of spoilers/FAQs/Walkthroughs thanks to an insane retcon that totally came out of nowhere. Oh well.
    Described Krakoa very well
    Zethrimon unblock me

  5. #6020
    Mighty Member tuck frump's Avatar
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    Genosha as a mutant nation was a b plot confined to a couple of miniseries. I dont think it was featured prominently in the main book outside of Eve of Destruction and then getting nuked. It wasnt the XMen HQ, it didt host every mutant, ultimately it wasnt particularly relevant. Its destruction had much more impact on the narrative then anything else.

    Utopia was pretty much an island sized bunker. It was not official recognized, it wasnt even a country, it happened when the XMen were still in the middle of the messiah storyline.

    Krakoa is very much connected to the current stakes in the narrative, Moira/Xavier/Magneto struggle, the economic social and political implications of mutants having their own nation and the Apocalypse/Horsemen/Inferno II upcoming storyline. And its only been introduced a couple months ago.

  6. #6021
    Bad Guy CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Having the X-Men unilaterally declare Xavier's dream to be completely dead may be fresh and new, but I would hardly call it "fun".
    Idk the idea of the X-Men going all "f**k this" and completely shitting on humans for the foreseeable future always sounded pretty fun in theory.

    In action? It's the best thing in the world since canned bread.

  7. #6022
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    Genosha as a mutant nation was a b plot confined to a couple of miniseries. I dont think it was featured prominently in the main book outside of Eve of Destruction and then getting nuked. It wasnt the XMen HQ, it didt host every mutant, ultimately it wasnt particularly relevant. Its destruction had much more impact on the narrative then anything else.

    Utopia was pretty much an island sized bunker. It was not official recognized, it wasnt even a country, it happened when the XMen were still in the middle of the messiah storyline.

    Krakoa is very much connected to the current stakes in the narrative, Moira/Xavier/Magneto struggle, the economic social and political implications of mutants having their own nation and the Apocalypse/Horsemen/Inferno II upcoming storyline. And its only been introduced a couple months ago.
    So your argument is Krakoa is different because it has current narrative importance?

    Okay. That's certainly a take.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  8. #6023
    Embrace the Fluff FluffyCyclopsRLZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    It is different though similar. I would say the biggest difference so far is all mutant kind under the same philosophy. You had some big disagreements during the Utopia and even moreso during the Genosha era about the ethics of the idea. Virtually all of mutant kind broadly agree its needed with some slight variations.

    So, far the philosophical difference I can tell on the island boils down to what those on the island think of humans off the island as well as using deadly force. We will see pretty soon better how much the core X-Men align with traditional X-Men or Acolyte thought on those topics.
    I covered that with the "with all the cheat codes turned on" bit. Current Krakoa is basically untouchable and everyone's happily getting along for... reasons. It's kind of an embarrassingly perfect set-up, really.

    Totally different ballgame if it's later revealed the Magnificent Bastard wearing a telepathy-boosting helmet 24/7 nudged everyone in a particular direction, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    That......makes it different, doesn’t it?
    You honestly don't think of it as kind of a cheap win?

    I mean, Xavier basically pulled a mutant Wakanda out of thin air.
    Last edited by FluffyCyclopsRLZ; 10-13-2019 at 12:48 PM.

  9. #6024
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    retcons aren't meaningless, they change character and their interactions since first issue of X-men.

    Sometimes I think that stories being new and fresh are more important than x-men story and characters
    Worrying that retcons happen is what is meaningless. They happen constantly. And will in the future too.

    We wouldn't have 60 years of comic book stories without them. Or they'd be the kind of recycled garbage we've seen for far too long.

  10. #6025
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoCoBandz View Post
    Idk the idea of the X-Men going all "f**k this" and completely shitting on humans for the foreseeable future always sounded pretty fun in theory.

    In action? It's the best thing in the world since canned bread.
    If Xavier's dream doesn't need to exist, why do the X-Men? What makes them the X-Men anymore if the whole point of the series since its inception is now moot?
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  11. #6026
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrezValentine View Post
    You'd think that would be obvious, but apparently it's an outlandish conclusion.
    Hickman was never going to make everyone happy. A few people not enjoying it or having sour grapes is to be expected.

    I don't think Hickman or Marvel cares. The reception has been nothing short of glowing and I think the vast majority of us are in that group.

  12. #6027
    Fantastic Member houndsofluv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    If Xavier's dream doesn't need to exist, why do the X-Men? What makes them the X-Men anymore if the whole point of the series since its inception is now moot?
    his dream needs to change to allow for new character/story developments . This isn’t the first time they’ve diverged from it and it won’t be the last. The x-men as characters are more than the sum of xavier’s philosophies

  13. #6028
    Bad Guy CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    If Xavier's dream doesn't need to exist, why do the X-Men? What makes them the X-Men anymore if the whole point of the series since its inception is now moot?
    The X-Men are whatever Xavier needs them to be tbh.

    The X-Men were always heroes first and foremost. They'll still be doing the same thing. Saving humans that hate them...only now they may occasionally punch the racist picketer in the face and piss on their rug and that's totally fine...

  14. #6029
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Xaviers dream being dead isn't new. We had several ethos come out in the last 15 years.

  15. #6030
    Fantastic Member Domino_Dare-Doll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    I covered that with the "with all the cheat codes turned on" bit. Current Krakoa is basically untouchable and everyone's happily getting along for... reasons. It's kind of an embarrassingly perfect set-up, really.

    Totally different ballgame if it's later revealed the Magnificent Bastard wearing a telepathy-boosting helmet 24/7 nudged everyone in a particular direction, though.



    You honestly don't think of it as kind of a cheap win?

    I mean, Xavier basically pulled a mutant Wakanda out of thin air.
    Definitely agree with you here: It feels more like where someone's idealised fanfiction starts from rather than the start of a new era. These don't feel like the same character voices; it's as if we've skipped a chapter where the bulk of this was processed and rationalised. I don't think it's enough to say 'we might see that later on,' judging on where these characters have suddenly sprung to, we needed to see it first and foremost. Not just from Moira and Xavier's point of view.

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