House of X & Powers of 10 discussion

[Glio]

In the hypothetical case of "pod people," Magneto could integrate the adamantium into Logan's skeleton even before his nervous system developed, making it a completely painless procedure.

[TOTALITY]

That Nerdist article is such a great illustration of the fan blog / entertainment journalist craft of hitting word counts with takes or tiny news tidbits that rarely can support them. This one basically amounts to “it’s clones!” which has been the pretext for all kinds of more in-depth speculation in these forums and probably all over the internet for weeks now. Of course I can understand why no one at Nerdist would sacrifice their dignity by speeding headlong into convoluted conspiracies like we have, but reading that after spending so much time here feels like being on a Formula 1 track and then someone is like “I’ve got it - watch this!” but they’re just showing off how long they can idle 20 feet past the starting line.

[Shreene]

In the hypothetical case of "pod people," Magneto could integrate the adamantium into Logan's skeleton even before his nervous system developed, making it a completely painless procedure.

What would be the point?

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

What would be the point?

To have Wolverine keep his weapon in it's most dangerous form?

[PrezValentine]

What would be the point?

Of having an adamantium skeleton or making the procedure painless? Because both of these questions kind of answer themselves when you read it out loud.

[Shreene]

Of having an adamantium skeleton or making the procedure painless? Because both of these questions kind of answer themselves when you read it out loud.

And, who said the re-adamantizing of Logan via Apocalypse was painful?

[phoenixzero23]

I don't know, I feel like resurrecting someone via cloning is weird (if that is what the pod people are made for)

Even if they have the same looks and memories, I would count them as different people.

[Snoop Dogg]

I don't know, I feel like resurrecting someone via cloning is weird (if that is what the pod people are made for)

Even if they have the same looks and memories, I would count them as different people.

Unless Xavier is like, snatching their minds as they die and transferring them, they are totally different people.

[hawkeyefan]

That Nerdist article is such a great illustration of the fan blog / entertainment journalist craft of hitting word counts with takes or tiny news tidbits that rarely can support them. This one basically amounts to “it’s clones!” which has been the pretext for all kinds of more in-depth speculation in these forums and probably all over the internet for weeks now. Of course I can understand why no one at Nerdist would sacrifice their dignity by speeding headlong into convoluted conspiracies like we have, but reading that after spending so much time here feels like being on a Formula 1 track and then someone is like “I’ve got it - watch this!” but they’re just showing off how long they can idle 20 feet past the starting line.

I think something might be up with Krakoa!!!

[H-E-D]

I don't know, I feel like resurrecting someone via cloning is weird (if that is what the pod people are made for)

Even if they have the same looks and memories, I would count them as different people.

Comic book clone rules are so inconsistent

[TOTALITY]

I don't know, I feel like resurrecting someone via cloning is weird (if that is what the pod people are made for)

Even if they have the same looks and memories, I would count them as different people.

WHAT IF they were to reveal that the Jean found in the cocoon was actually created through the same process? (A theory I lay out in depth here.) What could you disabuse yourself of more easily — thinking of the post-Dark Phoenix Jean as “real”, or your hesitance to acknowledge the clones as real? Would you be mad that they called into question the validity of decades of stories, or say that since we’ve been thinking of this Jean as legitimate since 1985, maybe the copies can be complete enough to count as real?

[phoenixzero23]

WHAT IF they were to reveal that the Jean found in the cocoon was actually created through the same process? (A theory I lay out in depth here.) What could you disabuse yourself of more easily — thinking of the post-Dark Phoenix Jean as “real”, or your hesitance to acknowledge the clones as real? Would you be mad that they called into question the validity of decades of stories, or say that since we’ve been thinking of this Jean as legitimate since 1985, maybe the copies can be complete enough to count as real?

Honestly, yeah.

I feel like one of the cool things about Jean has been to see her grow since she was a kid, to see were her experiences take her on how change her
She could be replicated but none of those clones would have lived the same things even if they believe and remember them, they wouldn't be the Jean that was there on the first issue and that has evolved but people that believe are her.

[TOTALITY]

Honestly, yeah.

I feel like one of the cool things about Jean has been to see her grow since she was a kid, to see were her experiences take her on how change her
She could be replicated but none of those clones would have lived the same things even if they believe and remember them, they wouldn't be the Jean that was there on the first issue and that has evolved but people that believe are her.

In what sense would she not be the same Jean who was there in the first issue though, except in the most literal way? And even then, most of the cells in anyone’s body would be different than the ones they had a decade or so ago. If it’s an exact copy of her body and psyche with all her memories carried over, it seems like the only thing missing would be the continuity of her crawling into the cocoon or the pod herself. If I could transfer my complete memories to a new body and be sure that it was exactly the same, I personally don’t think I’d have any existential reservations about whether or not I was still “me” in the new body. But that’s just me — it seems pretty subjective! I’m kind of surprised you would be so quick to say that would invalidate the last 34 years of one of your favorite characters, but if you feel that way then I guess that suggests it would be a pretty contentious move in general.

[phoenixzero23]

It would be just weird. Like knowing someone for long and then realizing that person wasn't who he/she said he/she was.
like that person came from a different country than the one he/she said before, nothing bad but it would change who I thought they really were.

[jamesslow]

Popping back onto this board for half-an-hour to share my latest crackpot theory and then I'll be out of here again...

Unless all 10 lives are a simulation in (Morrison's) The World or (Claremont's) Danger Room or (Brubaker's) Dream-time, then Hickman was bending the truth or outright fibbing (which would be an outrageous thing for a sci-fi/fantasy writer to do, right?) when he said no time-travel or parallel universes are involved.

Moira cannot possibly reset the entire Marvel universe every time she dies. Her power is not actually reincarnation. What must happen each time she dies is, all her past experiences and knowledge is sent by psychic means back through time to her birth --which is an established canonical phenomenon in DOFP-- and we know, also through DOFP, that you only spin off an alternate timeline rather than change the future (which is already the mind-traveller's past). All the 10 timelines we've read so far must carry on after each Moira dies, she just has no knowledge of what happens thereafter.

Hickman has shown us that it was only misdirection which made us assume the 4 panels on the opening page of POX#1 take place in the same timeline. While X^1 is unequivocally Life 10 (House of X), he surprised many of us by revealing that X^2 is in fact Life 9 (House of A).

Ok, this is where I go batshit crazy -- Life 10 is not our 616.

Charles, Scott and Jean seemed to act out of character not because they're pod people, but because the trajectory of their lives have been re-directed and warped by Moira's knowledge which she has shared with, at least, Charles and Eric. The mutant suicide squad who bought it on The Forge were all the originals and they will not be reborn. In Life 10 they are dead and forever gone (maybe except Logan who could have leapt into Mother Mold's mouth, and they were then picked up by the front wave of Sentinels arriving from Mars). The loss of his best soldiers drive Charles to bring onboard Apocalypse and Sinister. Things go from bad to worse until, far in the future, mutants manage to subvert Nimrod to their cause, and wipe out humans, leaving only a few devolved specimens in "The Preserve". This is what we saw in X^3, which ends in the Mutant-Machine "government" inviting the Phalanx to fold Earth into the Ascension. As one might expect, this will go wrong and spell the destruction of Earth.

Wait, it gets more insane: Moira is somehow shown that the happiest ending is for Man, Mutant and Machine to all get along (check out Novacene by the 100 year old author James Lovelock --the propounder of the Gaia theory 40 years ago-- in which he is hopeful that hyperintelligent AI will take the driver's seat and recognise that its platform needs a Gaian planet, and will help us preserve it).

Cross-reference: All Star Superman in which Morrison's proposed answer to the question "What would happen if an irresistible force meets an immovable object?" is, "They surrender." (I've another series conclusion in mind, Vaughn's Paper Girls, but it would be too big a spoiler for those who've not read it.)

The rub is, this happy ending was only ever achieved in one of her lives so far, Life 4, the one which superficially looks like our 616, and it could only happen if she did not interfere despite all her foreknowledge. Thus, Moira makes what Destiny foresaw as the "correct" decision. Moira dies after the botched Ascension in Life 10 and returns in Life 11, by which time she has decided to leave the universe the fuck alone.

So... Moira approaches Charles in the Fairgrounds (clue: she refers to the Nimrod tower as "the monolith of ascension", which did not happen in her Life 9) and asks him to erase her memories (and, presumably, Charles's own knowledge of what he read in her mind). The Year^0 sequence in both HOX and POX containing "the most important scene in X Men history" takes place not in Life 10 but Life 11, and this is the 616 timeline we all know, with Moira continuing on, with no knowledge of her previous 10 lives.

And, yes, Hickman promises us faithful readers a happy ending to the Man-Mutant-Machine War, but only about a thousand years from now, after much blood, sweat and tears, which means any and all stories of the War can be written that would not contradict the fact that it all ends in Unity.

Now, before the Time Police come to get me, I'm logging off, CIAO!