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  1. #4921
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gambitxremy View Post
    It’s just a comic book and the fun part about it is to have discussions and theories and funbwith them
    Without a doubt.
    However, if all you do is pull it apart and scutinise and criticise everything becuase it does not fit neatly with what you want and believe then perhaps this story/writer is not for you or you've outgrown the medium. It happens.

  2. #4922
    New Mutant TOTALITY's Avatar
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    It can be fun to think of the implications of certain developments when taking into account the vast tapestry of different kinds of fantasy that makes up the Marvel universe. Like "how do you reconcile this method of resurrection with all those totally different Marvel stories that have souls?" There could theoretically be a lot of fun answers to that. (My personal headcanon is that everything that happens in the MU could theoretically be explained in scientific AND magical/spiritual/supernatural terms, and it's just that most stories and most characters only deal with one of those at a time.)

    But it seems like I've been seeing a lot of people around here for whom this isn't fun -- the fixation on the idea of a soul as something wholly, categorically separate from anything scientifically knowable, is a barrier that they can't follow the story across. The X-Men are all now just soulless organic automatons, or the real X-Men are dead and in heaven or hell while these imposters walk the earth with their memories.. even though that doesn't seem to be the story Hickman is trying to tell.

    To those people I would say, Hickman already included language in the issue to indicate each mutants' soul is put back in the body along with their memories, as an olive branch to you. Even if that was not in itself enough to convince you, here's your chance to meet the story half way and reason for yourself how that could be true in a way that convinces you, and then go on enjoying the story as if these resurrections really do count, as future issues will likely be predicated on them counting. One option is fun and has a way forward, and the other option is just stubbornly fixating on an abstract concept that may well have been dealt with as far as Hickman intends to deal with it for now.

  3. #4923
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Exactatiously!

  4. #4924
    Incredible Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Proteus is a reality warper these are the same characters mind body and soul
    I agree. It is kind of frustrating to see so many fans (in reviews, on twitter, on various forums) say that these are just copies and are not our X-men.. and yet the story addresses this. The story uses Polaris to say what we are thinking but Magneto explains that the soul is put back into the mutant body, and we see Xavier do it with Scott. In my opinion our "soul" is our mind .. our memories, experiences, it is what is in our brains. Their bodies were cloned/recreated and then they were given their minds/essence from the cerebro back ups.

    Even though they are backed up once a week, Scott seems to be aware of their mission when he asks if it all worked, which to me shows they have their memories from right to their death, probably due to Xavier (and team) being mind linked with Jean (and earlier Monet). Though as some pointed out Scott did know they successfully stopped the Mother Mold and with Xavier he did ask if they were successful but being reborn is probably a heavy and confusing activity.

    It is unclear if the X-men knew Xavier was capable of this (though they probably did since Banshee is already back and so are the once dead cuckoos).

  5. #4925
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    I agree. It is kind of frustrating to see so many fans (in reviews, on twitter, on various forums) say that these are just copies and are not our X-men.. and yet the story addresses this. The story uses Polaris to say what we are thinking but Magneto explains that the soul is put back into the mutant body, and we see Xavier do it with Scott. In my opinion our "soul" is our mind .. our memories, experiences, it is what is in our brains. Their bodies were cloned/recreated and then they were given their minds/essence from the cerebro back ups.

    Even though they are backed up once a week, Scott seems to be aware of their mission when he asks if it all worked, which to me shows they have their memories from right to their death, probably due to Xavier (and team) being mind linked with Jean (and earlier Monet). Though as some pointed out Scott did know they successfully stopped the Mother Mold and with Xavier he did ask if they were successful but being reborn is probably a heavy and confusing activity.


    It is unclear if the X-men knew Xavier was capable of this (though they probably did since Banshee is already back and so are the once dead cuckoos).
    So there's five Cuckoos again?

  6. #4926
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shreene View Post
    And, has his memories and powers? I don't see it...
    What specific memories? Cause they aren't showing.

    And several comics hace shown that mutant powers do not travel with the soul or whatever. They're body specific.

  7. #4927
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormultt Divine View Post
    A 'Krakoa' title would be nice.

    Just to follow different mutants and how things on Krakoa are.
    I'd like to explore the island and see what they have built and how certain mutants are reacting to their new home.
    Great now it won't happen :/
    GrindrStone(D)

  8. #4928

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOTALITY View Post
    But it seems like I've been seeing a lot of people around here for whom this isn't fun -- the fixation on the idea of a soul as something wholly, categorically separate from anything scientifically knowable, is a barrier that they can't follow the story across. The X-Men are all now just soulless organic automatons, or the real X-Men are dead and in heaven or hell while these imposters walk the earth with their memories.. even though that doesn't seem to be the story Hickman is trying to tell.
    I don't get why this is such a hurdle for folks. Magik was explicitly brought back as a soulless simulacrum (though obvs that got worked out later), and readers have pretty much gone, "Close enough" if the question comes up at all. Cypher's a reanimated, aged-up corpse. I'm not even getting into the dumpster fire that is Alpha Flight's assorted deaths and resurrections. Phoenix force, time-travel, nefarious scientists, mystical hoo-diddy... I mean, resurrections more far-fetched than this are a matter of course. I get that we've taken the certainty of eventual resurrection out of the realm of meta and put it into the story, but I don't feel like that's enough to be a deal breaker.
    Last edited by Anduinel; 09-23-2019 at 09:41 AM.

    This Week's Comics: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #100, The Amazing Mary Jane #3

  9. #4929
    Astonishing Member King_Thor13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormultt Divine View Post
    A 'Krakoa' title would be nice.

    Just to follow different mutants and how things on Krakoa are.
    I'd like to explore the island and see what they have built and how certain mutants are reacting to their new home.
    That would be fantastic. Hell, that could be our X-Men Anthology title just checking in with different mutants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    I wonder how Cerebro works bringing back alt reality mutants. Like, could Xavier bring back a Jimmy Hudson who still has Mothervine in his blood? That way it could be used to repower mutants.
    I really wanna know this too. Was Bloodstorm's DNA backed up? And what about all the mutants who came over from the 616? Mach Two, Blackheath, Guardian etc.?

  10. #4930
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOTALITY View Post
    To those people I would say, Hickman already included language in the issue to indicate each mutants' soul is put back in the body along with their memories, as an olive branch to you. Even if that was not in itself enough to convince you, here's your chance to meet the story half way and reason for yourself how that could be true in a way that convinces you, and then go on enjoying the story as if these resurrections really do count, as future issues will likely be predicated on them counting. One option is fun and has a way forward, and the other option is just stubbornly fixating on an abstract concept that may well have been dealt with as far as Hickman intends to deal with it for now.
    This seems to be the hardest part of reading comics for some. I have lost count how many times I have advised people in good faith to try and meet the writers half way or in my words read the story with a generosity of spirit. That when reading anything the reader has a certain responsibility to translate the text into their own view of canon.

    It’s clearly not born from a lack of flexible or creative thinking, because the ways that ambiguous or vague references are effortlessly turned into definitive contradictions of canon and used as proof of a writer not doing their part of the job is clearly creative. It’s rarely on the page.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 09-23-2019 at 02:28 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  11. #4931
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Hmmm, just had a thought. The far future story could be a promethean one. Moira steals the secret of immortality. The Phalanx have been presented here as the kind of civilisation that would reach the technology* posited in Tipler's ‘The Physics of Immortality’ and the Phalanx itself was inspired by those late 90’s post-modern physics ideas.

    What if the lesson in that lifeline (would have to be life 6) ended up being how to resurrect the dead, in a manner that is akin to the kind of far future Anthropic Principle that the Phalanx may have become capable of in the even more far future. In other words Moira has stolen secrets from the secular gods that are ourselves once we have become ultimately powerful and subverted the Phalanx to the will of post-humanity.

    I mean physics has moved on a lot since then and The Physics of Immortality reads like comedy these days, but this is fiction. I guess that was too actually

    *Omega Point -borrowed from the catholic theologian de Chardin. Tipler suggested it was inevitable that the universe needed a omniscient god-like observer within the universe to close the quantum wave function, and therefore it was logically our destiny to be those god like observers.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 09-23-2019 at 04:34 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  12. #4932
    Extraordinary Member Fokken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anduinel View Post
    I don't get why this is such a hurdle for folks. Magik was explicitly brought back as a soulless simulacrum (though obvs that got worked out later), and readers have both pretty much gone, "Close enough" if the question comes up at all. Cypher's a reanimated, aged-up corpse. I'm not even getting into the dumpster fire that is Alpha Flight's assorted deaths and resurrections. Phoenix force, time-travel, nefarious scientists, mystical hoo-diddy... I mean, resurrections more far-fetched than this are a matter of course. I get that we've taken the certainty of eventual resurrection out of the realm of meta and put it into the story, but I don't feel like that's enough to be a deal breaker.
    Mystical hoo-diddy. It warrants repeating. LOL

  13. #4933
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    This seems to be the hardest part of reading comics for some. I have lost count how many times I have advised people in good faith to try and meet the writers half way or in my words read the story with a generosity of spirit. That when reading anything the reader has a certain responsibility to translate the text into their own view of canon.

    It’s clearly not born from a lack of flexible or creative thinking, because the ways that ambiguous or vague references are effortlessly turned into definitive contradictions of canon and used as proof of a writer not doing their part of the job is clearly creative. It’s rarely on the page.
    There are plenty of resurrections that I just accept without looking behind the curtain because the writers do not call attention to it. This is a mutant factory that the story even tells us could do things that would more than break any argument that these are by the book resurrections. The language Hickman uses between Polaris and Magneto is meant to show the discomfort but how they have come to accept this reality, the language in the info page tells us it is something unnerving indeed.

  14. #4934
    Fantastic Member Graphicisnovel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Hmmm, just had a thought. The far future story could be a promethean one. Moira steals the secret of immortality. The Phalanx have been presented here as the kind of civilisation that would reach the technology* posited in Tipler's ‘The Physics of Immortality’ and the Phalanx itself was inspired by those late 90’s post-modern physics ideas.s.
    That's a good idea. I like that. Would fulfill all we've seen.

    however, personally I think you guys are missing the point of the resurrections here by scrutinizing it. I'm just marveling at the ability of mutants to finally put all that power to good use through mass collaboration, mirroring our own history, there was ALWAYS this potential. Mixing powers in a group like this had been done but not harnessed. Now theyre truly functioning on a higher level than humans: evolution fulfilled!

    if we humans band together we can become a galactic level power. Mutants did it and surpassed human values, life and death, even other cosmic forces.

  15. #4935

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