House of X & Powers of 10 discussion

[Woozie]

I think this cuts to the themes Hickman is developing. Post humanity is not relatable to us. We might recognise the direction we are travelling in our culture, but there is a future shock element to a merged Human/Machine culture. The mutants reflect the desire to stay in touch with nature. Moira is not so much trying to defeat humanity as stop the inevitable drift towards an inhuman future.

Like I said in the issue thread I don’t really see the story as being about humans Vs mutants.

So Moira's a conservative radical.

[Omnihallows]

I think it is hypocritical in a way. The justification to fight against homo-novissima is the same one that humans use to justify their fight against mutants. It removes any claim mutants have to being the next step and for that to somehow matter.

Which then makes it solely about wanting to protect one’s own kind. Which may be understandable in and of itself....but then the question becomes “why are the humans wrong for doing the same thing?”

there is a what if issue, called What If Magneto Ruled All Mutants in where the Acolytes murderer a baby, believing to be the next step of the mutants, without knowing what Magneto had altered the tests to give the two warring groups a mutual threat. Demonstrating that the so-called superior species is capable of behaving in the same way as humans; Doing anything to preserve your species.

[JKtheMac]

So Moira's a conservative radical.

I wouldn’t use that analogy no. Is it radical to cling to our humanity? Is it conservative to not want to lose touch with who we are?

I see the ‘we lose?’ question being more about how humanity loses.

[Lapsus]

because you can change yourself and give yourself powers without being replaced by the more advanced version of humanity.

Then where is the problem? if Humanity can produce by reproduction a better version of themselves and genetically control their own genoma the conflict should be how is humanity using those powers? mutants include. Some mutants have terrifying powers, true, but why no mutant is scared of this fact?

Why should i care that the future humans will have powers?. The keyword here is replaced, you can be replaced by robots, by aliens, by apes...If humanity dindt give birth to mutants i could see your point, but for me that fact is a plot killer.

not really about survival because humans and mutants could easily co-exist peacefully and advance together, they are technically the same race. It's about a selfish desire for control.

The mutants haven't had political power and the humans are afraid of mutants getting political power. It's about who has the power to decide how things operate on the world. Baseline humans are desperately afraid that mutants will gain a political power advantage and end up dominating the political discourse on Earth.

If this is about control, Humanity and Mutants should never be two fronts, it should be a more complicated war. That everything leads to the same simplistic conclusion is what baffles me.

[RachelGrey]

I think this cuts to the themes Hickman is developing. Post humanity is not relatable to us. We might recognise the direction we are travelling in our culture, but there is a future shock element to a merged Human/Machine culture. The mutants reflect the desire to stay in touch with nature. Moira is not so much trying to defeat humanity as stop the inevitable drift towards an inhuman future.

Like I said in the issue thread I don’t really see the story as being about humans Vs mutants.


It isn’t a mutant vs genetic manipulation choice. It is natural selection vs directed evolution. The genetic manipulation sets up a cycle of change that leads to a very inhuman place. The post humans don’t feel very human.

Not only that, but Post-Humanity doesn't even really intend to continue beyond the point of merger with the Phalanx. Their knowledge and memories will be absorbed into the Phalanx but all the individual people will die. The Librarian himself wasn't going to go back in the past and stop Moira from changing things, the godhead he merges with would do it. To what end, to become part of an infinitely powerful deity type being that can only change by absorbing the life and memories of other living beings.

Post-Humanity doesn't want existence they want these higher beings to acknowledge that they are awesome enough to be absorbed into the collective of the Phalanx. So all of the entire remnants of the human race have decided that the path to evolution was to make themselves as close to the Borg as they possibly could and then when the Borg finally show up, they surrender and say go ahead and assimilate me.

Biological mutant evolution allows the human race to continue and to continue to advance so that we can take our place in the stars too and become more like the Shi'ar, Kree, and Skrulls as a space fairing race. Post-humanity's ambition is to be a data crystal that exists in the super computer of a Dominion and Stronghold, they exist only as a memory and their history stops at the moment of assimilation and there is nothing after that, they just cease to continue.

[RachelGrey]

there is a what if issue, called What If Magneto Ruled All Mutants in where the Acolytes murderer a baby, believing to be the next step of the mutants, without knowing what Magneto had altered the tests to give the two warring groups a mutual threat. Demonstrating that the so-called superior species is capable of behaving in the same way as humans; Doing anything to preserve your species.

The only reason there has to be war is if humans choose to make it about war. The mutants of Krakoa are offering an olive branch and saying we will accept peace and mutual cooperation if you do as well. Here we have some innovative medical products that we are willing to trade in exchange for peace treaties, acknowledgement of our status as a nation, allowing our people to come home, and trade contracts for other goods and services we will need as a nation. Technically Krakoa isn't even completely isolating their economy, they are allowing humans to sell them products and ship through the approved shipping company (Hellfire Corporation) to Krakoa.

I will admit that Magneto is a jerk and might try to start something. But on the other hand you have Emma going around and sitting down with human governments to hash out peace and trade treaties. The only person she pushed was the Russian ambassador and that was just to get the Russian Ambassador to abstain instead of vetoing their motion for statehood before it could be voted on by the entire general assembly. Emma didn't need to push anyone on the General Assembly because she already had enough negotiated peace treaties to swing the vote in favor of Krakoan statehood.

It's not like the mutants are trying to rule the planet, they are consolidating and securing their position in case they are ever attacked.

[Starfish]

What if the Celestials created the x-gene to put evolutionary pressure on humanity, driving their progress by forcing them to adapt?

[Omnihallows]

The only reason there has to be war is if humans choose to make it about war. The mutants of Krakoa are offering an olive branch and saying we will accept peace and mutual cooperation if you do as well. Here we have some innovative medical products that we are willing to trade in exchange for peace treaties, acknowledgement of our status as a nation, allowing our people to come home, and trade contracts for other goods and services we will need as a nation. Technically Krakoa isn't even completely isolating their economy, they are allowing humans to sell them products and ship through the approved shipping company (Hellfire Corporation) to Krakoa.

I will admit that Magneto is a jerk and might try to start something. But on the other hand you have Emma going around and sitting down with human governments to hash out peace and trade treaties. The only person she pushed was the Russian ambassador and that was just to get the Russian Ambassador to abstain instead of vetoing their motion for statehood before it could be voted on by the entire general assembly. Emma didn't need to push anyone on the General Assembly because she already had enough negotiated peace treaties to swing the vote in favor of Krakoan statehood.

It's not like the mutants are trying to rule the planet, they are consolidating and securing their position in case they are ever attacked.

And Apocalypse?? when everyone was celebrating, he didn't look happy or satisfied

[spirit2011]

Then where is the problem? if Humanity can produce by reproduction a better version of themselves and genetically control their own genoma the conflict should be how is humanity using those powers? mutants include. Some mutants have terrifying powers, true, but why no mutant is scared of this fact?

Why should i care that the future humans will have powers?. The keyword here is replaced, you can be replaced by robots, by aliens, by apes...If humanity dindt give birth to mutants i could see your point, but for me that fact is a plot killer.



If this is about control, Humanity and Mutants should never be two fronts, it should be a more complicated war. That everything leads to the same simplistic conclusion is what baffles me.

This is what I don't get, humans and mutants together would be far more stronger.

I guess there is something else that Moira is not telling

[Omnihallows]

This is what I don't get, humans and mutants together would be far more stronger.

I guess there is something else that Moira is not telling

Both Humans and Mutants are flawed, as all the species of the universe

[RachelGrey]

And Apocalypse?? when everyone was celebrating, he didn't look happy or satisfied

Do I think Charles and Erik may be biting off more than they can chew with Apocalypse and Sinister. Definitely Sinister is a serious issue that will eventually come back and try to kill everyone. Apocalypse may possibly play along for the time being. I don't want to make assumptions about him until I see him make a move. There is a chance that Apocalypse will play a very long game and not make any antagonistic moves for a while.

As for Paris/Exodus, I think he'll be happy as long as they keep the island safe from humans and human control. As long as they are a safe independent nation Paris will probably play along with the rest of the council.

That's just like saying what happens if the United States elects someone whose family has had close dealings with Nazi Germany and the KKK in the United States. Does that make all of Americans evil, no, but the man is a problem and needs to be removed as quickly as possible.

If Apocalypse makes a move to attack the planet, we can't assume that Krakoa will side with him, they could very well declare him a criminal terrorist and offer their assistance to any country that Apocalypse attacks.

[RachelGrey]

What if the Celestials created the x-gene to put evolutionary pressure on humanity, driving their progress by forcing them to adapt?

I don't even think it's a matter of what if, the Celestials seeded the Earth to drive evolutionary pressure on humanity. I think you are 100% correct, they did it to force humanity to adapt, evolve, and ascend.

It's possible that Franklin Richards was the endgame for the Celestials and in the far future Franklin is there at the very end when the universe blinks out to take his place as the Galactus of the next universe. For the sake of balance there must always be a Galactus, just like there must always be a Phoenix.

[Omnihallows]

I don't even think it's a matter of what if, the Celestials seeded the Earth to drive evolutionary pressure on humanity. I think you are 100% correct, they did it to force humanity to adapt, evolve, and ascend.

It's possible that Franklin Richards was the endgame for the Celestials and in the far future Franklin is there at the very end when the universe blinks out to take his place as the Galactus of the next universe. For the sake of balance there must always be a Galactus, just like there must always be a Phoenix.

A balance between the creation and destruction. Franklin and Galactus

[RachelGrey]

A balance between the creation and destruction. Franklin and Galactus

yeah, it's interesting how Galactus was the Franklin of the prior universe. After each big bang does the energy signatures reverse from positive to negative. So Franklin being a positive force in this iteration of the universe then becomes a negative force in the following iteration and he needs to consume worlds to maintain the balance.

I would actually find it fitting if in the next iteration of the universe that Franklin is Galactus and Rachel is Phoenix. I think it would have a nice story symmetry to it if they both become their representative beings in the next iteration.

[Lapsus]

Both Humans and Mutants are flawed, as all the species of the universe

True, but that flaw will also make impossible that either species will work together within themselves. The mutants can do that to a lesser extend now because they are few. More mutants, more heads thinking "well, i dont like that""You know what, Krakoa sucks"

People bring Telepaths to explain the mutant fear, but technically everyone should actually fear them.