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  1. #5971
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    Nightcrawler's death in Second Coming was great you guys.


  2. #5972
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    These were Erik's last words as he lay dying, magnetically imprinted and overlaid with other Genoshan victims' final thoughts, onto the Black Box of the sentinel-bastardised plane which levelled his tower:

    It’s a strange thing to die. I was Magneto, the master of magnetic forces. Now I will be a voice in the darkness, echoing forever. Once, I was a mortal man. Now I am becoming memory, immortal. They must have thought they could silence us forever. Instead we have become magnetic. Unstoppable.
    Last edited by jamesslow; 10-13-2019 at 12:43 AM. Reason: Auto correct fall

  3. #5973
    Mighty Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesslow View Post
    These were Erik's last words as he lay dying, magnetically imprinted and overlaid with other Genoshan victims' final thoughts, onto the Black Box of the sentinel-bastardised plane which levelled his tower:

    It’s a strange thing to die. I was Magneto, the master of magnetic forces. Now I will be a voice in the darkness, echoing forever. Once, I was a mortal man. Now I am becoming memory, immortal. They must have thought they could silence us forever. Instead we have become magnetic. Unstoppable.
    I loved that issue with Polaris building the statue.

  4. #5974
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    I loved that issue with Polaris building the statue.
    Indeed, if the publishers felt the X Men needed a nemesis with control over magnetism, they would not have ever needed to resurrect Magneto, since it would not have taken much imagination to write that the Genoshan tragedy radicalised Polaris, and perhaps boosted her into an omega level threat. I would have been perfectly content with Erik left dead forever but alive as the Magneto Was Right meme ("Ideas are bulletproof." - V).

  5. #5975
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    Won't someone please think of the canon!!!!

    Worrying about retcons and continuity in comic books is like complaining water is wet.
    That’s what happens in a culture where the loudest voices are readers of a certain age who value everything they have read which contrasts fundamentally with the reality of writing and the explicit aims of the editors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    You pretty much have to give up. You'll drive yourself crazy. Now, you can hold writers to making good choices and characterizations and all of that, that's fair. But what harm does a retcon do? Upset continuity? Canon?

    Those things are as real as unicorns. Or as subjective as your favorite foods. You can't be writing about the same characters for 60 years without that stuff being incredibly flexible. So I'd suggest giving in to the necessity of that flexibility and appreciate the story being told for what it is. You don't have to, but I can't imagine truly enjoying comic book reading without recognizing the spongy nature of the lore.
    Spot on. That is such an important point that needs to be made over and over it seems. If reading mainstream superhero comics is to be enjoyable on any level then we have to celebrate the way these characters are flexible and how canon is mutable. Otherwise we end up using canon to destroy our own enjoyment. That’s a choice we have to make. Whether we pour our energy into railing against this or reconciling this.

    This is not anyone’s fault other than the reader who chooses to do this to themselves. The writers are doing their job. The editors are allowing canon to be used as inspiration and to inform the stories without letting that be overwhelming and ossifying.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 10-13-2019 at 03:22 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  6. #5976
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    I disagree that the retcons were handled with subtlety. Having Xavier, Magneto and the whole merry crew on board for life ten from the get-go makes almost every story involving them make much less sense. If they were always on the same team, why were they constantly trying to kill each other?
    I really think you should reread these issues because Hickman has not written a story in which those characters are all on board with anything and explicitly not Moira’s plans. They have been informed by her and have taken decisions and actions based upon her but importantly they all have their own perspectives which will become much more apparent as we progress.

    The reason I suggest rereading is because all the clues are there. Both to explain why the various characters didn’t get on board straight away and yet did collaborate at specific times. Why they will not continue to see eye to eye as things develop. Why this whole situation is redolent with conflict and dramatic potential.

    Those clues and hints are subtle and nuanced. He doesn’t hit us over the head with them and he doesn’t fall into the trap of over defining them. So he and the other writers can dig into them and explore them rather than just retell the stories he has already laid out.

    Krakoa is like a convergence point. A large number of characters have all followed their individual paths and yet have come together for this moment. That is Moira’s doing through subtly and manipulation. They will diverge again. The vectors of their storylines are too pronounced to stay in lockstep for long.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 10-13-2019 at 03:12 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  7. #5977
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    I feel like there is a middle ground between "free reign to tell literally any story regardless of how well it fits or how many changes need to be made to make it work" and "tell exactly the story Marvel editorial wants you to tell down to the font or you're fired."
    Yep. This is that middle ground. A story that relies upon something fundamentally new and yet is carefully placed into canon So as not to overturn it. The fact you personally think it shifts canon too much is not anyone else’s concern. Not the writers and not the editors. They consider this to be the middle ground. So do I and so do a very large number of satisfied readers.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    The story only fits because Hickman made massive sweeping changes to the entire history of the franchise. That's not a good thing, and I don't understand why people think it's fine.
    He really hasn’t. You seem to be under the misapprehension that his changes are much bigger than they are.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 10-13-2019 at 03:38 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  8. #5978
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nopozyzy View Post
    I have some questions. Sorry if it's been discussed already. But what happened to Fantomex Xavier? How big of a time gap was there between this and the end of Uncanny? If Xavier new Moira was alive why did he take her death so hard? Can Moira live forever? How else can the world go on if it will get wiped with her death? How do the clones keep their attachments like adamatium and metal wings and whatnot? Did Xavier know about all this stuff during the 90's, 2000s?

    You ask some interesting questions.

    Fantomex Xavier: We don’t know yet. He may or may not be the same character. I would imagine we will get an interesting annual out of this.

    Time Gap: JDW—“As much as you want.”

    Xavier knew: This is a tricky one. If you like me went back and revisited the issues surrounding her death you will know it isn’t a perfect fit. I imagine there are two possibilities. Xavier is a good actor, which would somewhat contradict the story because of the way he reflects upon it and we are party to that reflection. Or, Xavier manipulates his own memory of the deception which would be incredibly cruel of him to himself. Maybe there is another option that somebody will explore.

    Moira live forever: Destiny seems to think she can’t. That her lives will eventually reach a point where she dies before her powers manifest. Whether that is true is untested. It might even be answered subtly in HoX #2 with the two black panels. Unless you are referring to how young she is in the far future which is probably a combination of stasis, Logan blood transfusions and other technology.

    World wiped: we have to assume that at some point Moira will become depowerd. I was assuming she may have already done this years ago to force herself to take radical choices, but it seems not. Whether it will be when she is happy with the destiny of the world, or whether someone will depower her and then kill her lest she regains her power remains to be seen. That would be a brave assassin.

    Clone bodies: One, they are not clones. Two, they get reality warped in the process so it’s probably part of what Proteus does. We need to wait and see but my bet lies there.

    Xavier’s knowledge: That probably depends on why his grief seemed so real. We know that Xavier mindwiped himself (replaced his own mind with an earlier version) twice. Perhaps once here and once to reset himself after the Fantomex story? Just a guess.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 10-13-2019 at 04:12 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  9. #5979
    Chris-chan of X-fans Maestroneto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anduinel View Post
    You tagged two of the big ones, Jean and John Proudstar. I'd also add Illyana's death from the Legacy Virus.
    I thought that issue was awful because it was framed entirely through Jubilee and Jean, two characters who had zero connection to Illyana and had already been shoved down our throats for years by that point courtesy of Lobdell and friends.

  10. #5980
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Magneto’s death at the start of the Morrison run was definitely one with the kind of potential I’m talking about. I didn’t mention it because Morrison himself undid it, and so glaringly.

    Magneto and Xavier are the two characters who seem like they could be killed off and then continue to influence the story with their legacies. However, all such attempts have failed to stick. Most were poorly handled anyway.

    I feel like this is one of the big reasons Hickman’s gone this route. Death was already meaningless to the characters. It was a stake that never actually mattered to them (most of them, anyway). So why not just acknowledge that and incorporate it into the stories?

    And then tell stories that can have meaningful consequences without having to rely on the shock of killing off a character.

  11. #5981
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    And then tell stories that can have meaningful consequences without having to rely on the shock of killing off a character.
    It is testament to the skewed stakes of so many comics that many consider taking away death as removing stakes from future comics. Any decent writer can come up with earth shattering personal stakes without death being the primary motivation.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  12. #5982
    Incredible Member Mr Cochese's Avatar
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    They could do big dramatic moments, like Jean wanting to bring Bishop into the rectangle, but Scott is against it and Emma discovers he is subconsciously racist because of an incident on the orphanage basketball court.

  13. #5983
    Fantastic Member houndsofluv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Cochese View Post
    They could do big dramatic moments, like Jean wanting to bring Bishop into the rectangle, but Scott is against it and Emma discovers he is subconsciously racist because of an incident on the orphanage basketball court.
    dead

    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    It is testament to the skewed stakes of so many comics that many consider taking away death as removing stakes from future comics. Any decent writer can come up with earth shattering personal stakes without death being the primary motivation.
    agreed. I think this new emphasis on not killing humans is gonna give us stakes enough , along with the ethics of Xavier/Moira/Erik’s operation. Hickman’s more concerned w/ asking us big, messy philosophical questions and I hella respect

  14. #5984
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    JKtheMac...dropping manna-bombs of truth and understanding.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  15. #5985
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    It is testament to the skewed stakes of so many comics that many consider taking away death as removing stakes from future comics. Any decent writer can come up with earth shattering personal stakes without death being the primary motivation.
    Exactly. It seems like a challenge to anyone writing these characters. Killing a character, at least “permanently”, is off the table. So what’s at stake? How are things dangerous? What can be lost?

    These seem like questions that are fundamental to crafting a meaningful superhero story. At least with an IP like X-Men.

    I’m definitely interested in seeing the answers.

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