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  1. #6031
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by houndsofluv View Post
    his dream needs to change to allow for new character/story developments . This isn’t the first time they’ve diverged from it and it won’t be the last. The x-men as characters are more than the sum of xavier’s philosophies
    There's a difference between changing the idea of acceptance and merged societies and abandoning the dream entirely though. What Jean was doing in X-Men Red was a change in the dream and marketed as such. What's happening here with Krakoa is total, full scale abandonment.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  2. #6032
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    So your argument is Krakoa is different because it has current narrative importance?

    Okay. That's certainly a take.
    Yes and because current storyline is vastly different then what was going on in the late 90s or early 10s... complaining that this is just a rehash while in the same breath pointing out that u dont like how stark of a departure it is from what came before... thats certainly a take.

  3. #6033
    Gift From The Lotus CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Xaviers dream being dead isn't new. We had several ethos come out in the last 15 years.
    You mean in the lost decade?

  4. #6034
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by houndsofluv View Post
    his dream needs to change to allow for new character/story developments . This isn’t the first time they’ve diverged from it and it won’t be the last. The x-men as characters are more than the sum of xavier’s philosophies
    When have they ever diverged to this extent?

    And correct me if I'm wrong, but what part of "peaceful coexistence between humans and mutants" needed to change?

    Finally, if the dream was so stupid and pointless... WHY WERE YOU FOLLOWING THE X-MEN!?!?!?!?!?
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  5. #6035
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    Yes and because current storyline is vastly different then what was going on in the late 90s or early 10s... complaining that this is just a rehash while in the same breath pointing out that u dont like how stark of a departure it is from what came before... thats certainly a take.
    Almost like you're taking two entirely different arguments, and conflating the two or something...
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  6. #6036
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Remember call me Alex vs Kitty Prydes accept me for what I am.

    Or Emmas they will always hate us. Or Cyclops we will protect humans but we will not tolerate violence on mutants.

  7. #6037
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    Worrying that retcons happen is what is meaningless. They happen constantly. And will in the future too.

    We wouldn't have 60 years of comic book stories without them. Or they'd be the kind of recycled garbage we've seen for far too long.
    agree, is impossible have comics without retcons after decades of stories.

    but Hickman completely changed all x-men interactions since the first ever issue. It is a huge implication
    Zethrimon unblock me

  8. #6038
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Xaviers dream being dead isn't new. We had several ethos come out in the last 15 years.
    The closest we've come to the dream being dead in the last 15 years was "Mutant Hitler" Cyclops. This is even more extreme, and people are on board with it. That blows my mind.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  9. #6039
    Sad & Brazilian PrezValentine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Having the X-Men unilaterally declare Xavier's dream to be completely dead may be fresh and new, but I would hardly call it "fun".
    You might not, some others might. I don't think that's really the fun part. The most amusing and logical? Yes, certainly. At some point, somebody would have to portray the X-Men as exposed to too much grief to stick to Xavier's philosophy. There would be people trying to make him look like the worst thing to happen right after Rosenberg if he insisted on the first dream of Xavier.

    Second, in the same manner his Avengers run started with the idea that everything dies and you can't win your enemy but only "not lose", to end on a very optimistic note, where it's shown how kindness and willingness to improve are far more effective than cynicism, Hickman might be setting things up to show that there are, indeed, ways to achieve coexistence.

    Of course, I suppose we shouldn't consider the idea that what we saw in the prologue might not be the entirety of what the writer wants to achieve, and there might be more to come. So, you can just dismiss whatever I said, if that's good with you.
    Hunting's no fun when your prey doesn't move.

  10. #6040
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    People are really acting as if there ever was going to come a day where the XMen finally achieve their goal. The dream needed to change because attempts to go back to basics have failed, both in universe and in a meta sense. Every popular run of the last 20 years has been abt pushing the envelope and redefining what the message was rather then retreading old paths.

  11. #6041
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    agree, is impossible have comics without retcons after decades of stories.

    but Hickman completely changed all x-men interactions since the first ever issue. It is a huge implication
    I won't deny that. I think it's an exciting thing to consider.

    Can he stick the landing to this premise? That's the question and I'm engaged with finding out. It has literally been decades for this X-fan since I've felt this engaged. Book sales seem to indicate it's bringing a lot of people back. That's a good thing. Now let's see if Hickman can make it work.

  12. #6042
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Remember call me Alex vs Kitty Prydes accept me for what I am.

    Or Emmas they will always hate us. Or Cyclops we will protect humans but we will not tolerate violence on mutants.
    And how do those contradict the dream? Peaceful coexistence never meant "lay down and let them stomp on our faces with their boots" and you know it.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  13. #6043
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    The closest we've come to the dream being dead in the last 15 years was "Mutant Hitler" Cyclops. This is even more extreme, and people are on board with it. That blows my mind.
    We've had:

    Emma in Astonishing X-Men 1
    Scott in Utopia
    Kitty Pryde in All New X-Men
    Havok in Uncanny Avengers

  14. #6044
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    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    Totally different ballgame if it's later revealed the Magnificent Bastard wearing a telepathy-boosting helmet 24/7 nudged everyone in a particular direction, though.
    Its certainly implied he is stacking the deck. By manipulating who and how we don't know.

  15. #6045
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    And how do those contradict the dream? Peaceful coexistence never meant "lay down and let them stomp on our faces with their boots" and you know it.

    Thats the exact quote. Thats not the same as Xaviers dream
    We must prove ourselves a peaceful people. We must give the ordinary humans respect, compliance, and understanding. And we must never mistake that for trust.

    Xavier was all in. Constantly trying to put mutants in harms way so that humans would be appeased and one day turn around and say oh you guys aren't so bad. Which us just not within human nature.

    And niether is Havoks call me Alex I'm just like you. Being a mutant shouldn't define you

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