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  1. #6091
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    It's all subjective. Hickman fans pretending they have moral superiority based on popularity just doesn't jive with me.
    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Just because your opinion is popular does not make it correct by default. Especially when it means ignoring glaring problems in the work.
    True, but it does not make it wrong either, its an opinion. However, the majority of sweeping statements, in my opinion seem to be coming more from the detractors then boosters. Like above, The only "moral superiority" arguments I've seen are coming from those claiming that the X-Men have all become violent, extremest, cultists blindly following a wildly out of character Xavier who has abandoned his dream. Also sweeping statements like there being "glaring problems", in order for it to be a glaring problem then it would need to be obtrusively and often painfully obvious to everyone, and most posters do not seem to share that view.

    My own problem with these kind of sweeping statements is simple, what exactly is it based on? HoX/PoX is not the full story, hell its not even Act 1 of a story. Its like the prologue in a book or the opening scroll of a Star Wars film. Its the setup for a story and personally a hell of a lot better than the wild changes of direction we've been getting before now. (Suddenly the X-Men are based in Limbo... now in central park... now everyone is dying off panel and every government is suddenly cooperating in a "mutant vaccine"... Why? Because reasons.)

    Outside of Xavier, Moira (both of whom haven't been all that active recently) and Magneto nobody has had enough panel time to make any real judgments on characterization. We've been given snippets, hints and previews but that's all. Also the consensus seems to be that while the rest of the X-Men may be acting oddly, so far they are not wildly out of character.

    Lastly it may well be that dire predictions and pessimistic predictions will prove true. Right now there simply isn't enough there to support that pessimistic of a view.

  2. #6092
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    anti-HiX-Men crowd is actually more oppressed than the gamers.

  3. #6093
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    No it absolutely does not. All of his actions remain the same. What book are you reading? It isn’t this one, which goes out of its way to explain how Charles went through a long period of convincing and possibly even hints that he still doesn’t see eye to eye with Moira.
    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    How so? I mean, you and PsychoEFrost both say this....but what specifically has changed? And how are those changes fundamentally changing the franchise?

    I see a lot of blanket statements about thongs like “everyone being on board from the start” and “changes to everyone” and “retcons are tools of last resort except for the many examples provided where that wasn’t the case”. To me, these read more like someone misunderstanding the books than like valid criticisms of the books.

    What changes has this book made that are so drastic that you feel the X-Men as a concept is no longer the same?
    how it doesn't change everything?

    Now we know that both Charles and Magneto are broken because of Moira. Everytime Charles talked about his co-existence it was pure crap that he never believed.
    Xavier went beyond everyone to do his own shady things, every interaction of him, moira and magneto have to be all reframed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsus View Post
    One decade??? God no, I was hopping that the resurrection thing will go away after one year or when the genosha event is finished.

    After that, the resurrection process should dissappear.
    I don't think it is going to last more than a decade. It could end on x-men #11, I just saying it has a expiration date.

    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Maybe just tell us what you think has changed so radically because we are genuinely at a loss to understand why anyone would say this.

    Charles didn’t abandon his dream at the drop of a hat. He may still have his doubts. He undertook some pragmatic actions like subverting Cerebro to a new cause but he didn’t act upon this and use it for anything radical until now. Magneto actively abandoned Moira’s cause and did his own thing before coming back to the fold. Sinister is shown as just one aspect of that strange collective, so everything he did remains identical and the part he played in the new status quo is directly from a recent book. So what exactly is so groundbreaking?
    He never believed on his dream after meeting Moira
    Last edited by spirit2011; 10-13-2019 at 04:45 PM.
    Zethrimon unblock me

  4. #6094
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    To me, Xavier's speech in House of X #6 read to me that it took until the modern era for Xavier to finally come around to Moira's point of view, even knowing what he knew.

  5. #6095
    Spectacular Member Thundershot's Avatar
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    I just realized something. If they plan to bring back all mutants, that means the X-Force / X-Statix characters can come back too!! I’d love to see Guy, Tike, Edie, etc all interact with the larger mutant community!

  6. #6096
    Sad & Brazilian PrezValentine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Majority of people loved the Transformers movies, loved the Twilight books, and love the 50 Shades of Gray books too.
    They did. And it was good for them. The fact that you or I don't like these properties doesn't automatically make them bad.
    Hunting's no fun when your prey doesn't move.

  7. #6097
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    anti-HiX-Men crowd is actually more oppressed than the gamers.
    They actually share the same demographics and use very much the same language as certain people who want "ethics in ***ing journalism". It's particular evident in the anti-Hickman youtubers I have seen.
    Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 10-13-2019 at 05:38 PM.

  8. #6098
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    I'm talking about what you said about retcons. I said twice that the use of retcons should only be used in the absolute worst case. Writers over the years have abused that to the point of meaninglessness, and it created the issue we have now. People just accept grand sweeping changes and retcons, pointless deaths and revivals, and complete and total 180 character shifts because that's how it has been written for years. And while Hickman's run may not be the absolute worst example of this, it is a culmination of issues.
    I wouldnít blame retcons for the current state of affairs. Iím sure we can find a couple of retcon stories that have contributed to the state the books were in prior to this event.

    Iím sure we can also find many stories that did not contain retcons that are far more responsible.

    Crap stories are crap stories, whether they contain a retcon or not. Good stories are good stories whether they contain a retcon or not. Actually, I think retcons are even harder to pull off because you have to make sure that itís good enough to justify changing things.

    But we can set aside all talk of other retcons and instead judge this story on its own.

    So, without judging this story based on every retcon thatís ever been written, how has it fundamentally changed the franchise?

    I donít think it has. I think it made some changes to the lore of the X-Men, and some were significant, but I donít think any are so drastic that the book no longer feels like it once did. In some ways, I think itís too early to say, but from what weíve seen so far, I think the core concept is intact.

  9. #6099
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    They actually share the same demographics and use very much the same language as certain people who want "ethics in ***ing journalism". It's particular evident in the anti-Hickman youtubers I have seen.
    Funny, the pro-Hickman YTers are the same ones claiming SJWs are ruining the X-Men.

  10. #6100
    Fantastic Member Stormultt Divine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Having the X-Men unilaterally declare Xavier's dream to be completely dead may be fresh and new, but I would hardly call it "fun".
    Its definitely fun and refreshing imo

  11. #6101
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    I wouldn’t blame retcons for the current state of affairs. I’m sure we can find a couple of retcon stories that have contributed to the state the books were in prior to this event.

    I’m sure we can also find many stories that did not contain retcons that are far more responsible.

    Crap stories are crap stories, whether they contain a retcon or not. Good stories are good stories whether they contain a retcon or not. Actually, I think retcons are even harder to pull off because you have to make sure that it’s good enough to justify changing things.

    But we can set aside all talk of other retcons and instead judge this story on its own.

    So, without judging this story based on every retcon that’s ever been written, how has it fundamentally changed the franchise?

    I don’t think it has. I think it made some changes to the lore of the X-Men, and some were significant, but I don’t think any are so drastic that the book no longer feels like it once did. In some ways, I think it’s too early to say, but from what we’ve seen so far, I think the core concept is intact.
    Because as Spirit said, retconning Xavier to be a complete hypocrite about preaching co-existence while completely knowing everything was going to go down the tubes paints the entire existence of the X-Men in the tenth life as a sham.

  12. #6102
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormultt Divine View Post
    Its definitely fun and refreshing imo
    I notice this attitude pops up a lot these days among the "fuck the flatscans" movement. I feel like the entire message of the X-Men since their inception gets completely lost. Especially since the X-Men have no less than 15 mutants who could destroy a country by themselves. The only reason mutants don't just genocide the humans is because "they're the good guys". Now that they operate in darker shades, what is logically stopping them from simply annihilating humanity to prevent any more Sentinels from being built?

  13. #6103
    Mighty Member Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Now that they operate in darker shades, what is logically stopping them from simply annihilating humanity to prevent any more Sentinels from being built?
    Their law that says murder no humans. :-)
    For the children, the wardrobe, and which one of these is a mimosa tree? Krakoa forever!

  14. #6104
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Their law that says murder no humans. :-)
    Because everyone always follows the law at all times, and there totally aren't a bunch of people on the council who breaks 20 or 30 laws before breakfast every day...

  15. #6105
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    Steering complaints away from retcons for a moment.

    I got a different, albeit I think equally as big issue with Hickman's X-men. And it's a Hickman problem that I feel permeates in his Avengers as well

    Hickman loves to push all his terrible OCs. And it's what I think makes PoX insufferable in a way that HoX is not. I got an issue with the whole retconning to justify other retcons, but that's more a personable gripe over wasted effort. But holy shit is X^2 and X^3 the definition of ZZZ inducing nothingness.

    Like having entire sections of a story dedicated to Ex Nihilo or Pod(Pre-Ewing)

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