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  1. #6181
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Well what I am saying ,Is people shouldn't be shocked when this isn't the evil empire they thought it was going to be and don't be surprised in Wave 3 or in the future "When you have a settlement in New York and X-men living in the mansion", Don't be surprised when you get X-men in space/space colony with a home base on Mars.
    I don't think it is an evil empire. But I feel more of the down-to-Earth X-Men should be conscious of how it looks to the rest of the world, it makes them look rather less approachable to say the least, which is not what you want from a movement for social change. And it is ultimately social acceptance for mutants in human society that should be the goal, cause that's where the mutants are gonna be, whether they want to or not. Can't help where you're born.

  2. #6182
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    For some readers, that reasoning just isn't enough, ya know? I think it's an emotional thing (which isn't wrong, I want to clarify!)
    "The only way I know how to live life is to act on my emotions." ~Heero Yuy, "Gundam Wing"
    Genkai nante nai (No limits), Zettai nante nai (No absolutes)

    The Current Hill that I Risk Dying On: #KrakoaNEVERMYXMEN
    "I promise, I'll definitely save you. With my tenth and final life, I WILL PROTECT YOU, MUTANDOKA!" ~HoMoira Kinross Akemi

  3. #6183
    Incredible Member Domino_Dare-Doll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    I don't think it is an evil empire. But I feel more of the down-to-Earth X-Men should be conscious of how it looks to the rest of the world, it makes them look rather less approachable to say the least, which is not what you want from a movement for social change. And it is ultimately social acceptance for mutants in human society that should be the goal, cause that's where the mutants are gonna be, whether they want to or not. Can't help where you're born.
    I'm worried about this one too; in terms of social implication, are human families who do birth a mutant going to feel 'pressured', in a way, to immediately send them off to Krakoa? Is that not isolating and othering in itself, especially if say you actually do get the slightly-rare occurrence where said family are close? Or will this prevent the family from ever being close to their mutant child, that is on the basis of "Oh, well...she's a mutant, we'll never get her, obviously. Better just send her off to Krakoa." Suddenly that child is just 'expected' to have not enjoyed any of their human rituals/traditions/family outings/whatever because...how could they? They were a mutant...other mutants didn't. (Speaking in hyperbole here, just to be clear!!)

    Which, on the one hand you could say that it does vindicate the idea that humans would never love their mutant offspring...but then, with so much emphasis being put on how humans are different from humans now, it would be kind of hard for both parties not to feel a bit 'othered' from each other? (It's a way more complicated issue than I'm presenting here, though, I recognise!)

  4. #6184
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    Like maybe the second a mutant baby is born to human parents, an X-Man instantly drops in and whisks the baby away to Krakoa without a by-your-leave, similar to how PRC agents have been able to grab anti-CPC dissidents who thought they were safe from prosecution by living in another country.
    Genkai nante nai (No limits), Zettai nante nai (No absolutes)

    The Current Hill that I Risk Dying On: #KrakoaNEVERMYXMEN
    "I promise, I'll definitely save you. With my tenth and final life, I WILL PROTECT YOU, MUTANDOKA!" ~HoMoira Kinross Akemi

  5. #6185
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    If it does come to a vs event I think both the sides will have to unite to fight against Xavier this time who will have Onslaught, Shadow King and Fantomex in each of his three brains(it will be revealed that he took over his body instead of refashioning it) and the trimuation will be the ultimate threat which will require the Phoenix grafted on Hope, American King Steve possessing the thor force and Franklin powered by a million million Molecule Men to face at which point the In-betweener The Unseen and Knull manifest and declare that they must cease battle or the energies released will destroy the multiverse but they don't listen and continue the combat until the one below all the others wakes up and devours them all and all of existence but Blue Marvel wearing the eternity mask and containing the Phoenix Monica inside him files beyond into the omniverse and breaking all limits of time and space become a singularity bullet that zeros in on the Moirament the embodiment of the first firmament which took shelter in her form after escaping the past embodiments of the Multiverse and thus Moira is never rebirthed and the Ninth Celestial age of the Exiled X-Man begins once again where X-Man is hanging Jean , Madelyn and Emma as his Odepian Complex is unleashed while the Krakoans disassembled unhinged from the multiverse enter into the Crimson Cosmos and are turned into the playthings of Cyttorak who feels he can at last win the octessence but finds that each of them have got a unhinged team with Balthakk getting the Avengers, Farallah getting the Defenders, Ikkon getting the Fantastic Four, Krakkan gets the Champions, Ragaddor gets the New Warriors, Valtorr gets the Eternals and Watoomb gets the Inhumans. At last the secret wars they have begun while reality burns and X-Man fucks his brains out but Doom is having none of it and has a plan to collect all the sentient cosmic cubes to signal the One above all and draw his attention to the shitty mess that the MU has become.
    Last edited by Desmark; 10-14-2019 at 03:12 AM.

  6. #6186
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmark View Post
    .....to signal the One above all and draw his attention to the shitty mess that the MU has become.
    That was how I conceptualized my "Marvel vs. X-Men" follow-up. I call it "Marvel Meta" and will see the Marvel characters giving their editorial offices all hell for FORCING the versus event to happen in the first place, followed by the calling out of the story directions for the last decade or two, that reinforced the "us vs. them" narrative of the Marvel Superheroes and the X-Men, and their IRL fans, that I'm surprised hasn't translated to real-life violence in the streets outside LCSes already. Cue Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and Ditko appearing as Marvel characters; since they're dead already. And Disney showing up with King Mickey with his Keyblade. Yeah.
    Genkai nante nai (No limits), Zettai nante nai (No absolutes)

    The Current Hill that I Risk Dying On: #KrakoaNEVERMYXMEN
    "I promise, I'll definitely save you. With my tenth and final life, I WILL PROTECT YOU, MUTANDOKA!" ~HoMoira Kinross Akemi

  7. #6187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Londo Bellian View Post
    That was how I conceptualized my "Marvel vs. X-Men" follow-up. I call it "Marvel Meta" and will see the Marvel characters giving their editorial offices all hell for FORCING the versus event to happen in the first place, followed by the calling out of the story directions for the last decade or two, that reinforced the "us vs. them" narrative of the Marvel Superheroes and the X-Men, and their IRL fans, that I'm surprised hasn't translated to real-life violence in the streets outside LCSes already. Cue Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and Ditko appearing as Marvel characters; since they're dead already. And Disney showing up with King Mickey with his Keyblade. Yeah.
    Lol my spiel was based on your post in part.

  8. #6188
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Co-existence shouldn't mean assimilation, but that is different from integration, as per the original dream; in that sense, mutants weren't supposed to suppress their powers beyond, obviously, property damage or the like or hide who they were. The idea was to reach out and educate enough to have people realise "We aren't this other thing; we're humans! We're just different!" which is more true to life. As in, mutants and humans live side by side, nobody has to give up the cultures and communities they were born into.
    Integration on humans terms have always been bad for the mutants. The X-men dream has always been flawed because mutants didn't have economic or social leverage to get a fair deal. For mutants and humans to Xavier dream exist how people want humans have to give up some stuff in process. Humans and Mutants have to be 50/50 partners. Humans in general don't want to be 50/50 partners you see it in real life when the majority loses privileges they got from always been ahead they don't like it. The smallest stuff are fights since we are comic realm you see it with character integration on minorities in fiction. The simplest thing would be elevate a bunch of minorities characters and create level playing field. The Majority has no interest in fixing a system that is going to punish or takeaway privilege in the grand scheme.

    Xavier dream is a beautiful thought but always had been somewhat BS, the real life examples show the flaws, Minorities have systematic disparities in being jailed, education and jobs. In the dream everybody would be treated equal but the reality is the Rich majority group likes making money off the poor, Some middle class majority realizes hey if I go out my way to treat these people fairly it might mean my family being poor one day. The poor minority seem themselves as rich or middle class and also isn't about elevate minorities. It is like I said Humans have to be willing to give up something. When you apply that to comic world you get why Mutants are stuck as real life minorities. Made even worse by the fact that mutants are actually "superior". In real life immigrant isn't going to steal your job but in the comic world telekinetic or someone super strength or speed will take your job construction. Elixir is better than Doctors at healing. Also the situation is made even worse by mutants are actually dangerous as well. Anyways the big point Krakoa is mutants pulling out of the old deal and coming together so they have strength on bargaining table metaphorically.

    Anyways we have probably overthink this way too much and give creators who don't think about this stuff way to much credit. Marvel isn't thinking about the impact of mutants(and superhuman) workers in the economy. It isn't not hard to see Forge, Trinary, Cypher,Prodigy being among the richest people in the world. It isn't hard to imagine the average mutant getting better-paying jobs than humans. Blink, Quicksilver or Magic would kill at FedEx. Marvel isn't thinking about Mutants impact on sports, It is not hard to imagine MMA league or football league made up of superhumans being more popular than normal humans. Marvel isn't thinking about the impact of mutants in warfare every country would be in the mutant arms race if we are being honest. They definitely haven't thought about the social impact of mutants besides something like District X and now Krakoa. Anyways it is fun to talk about even though we got to pull back a little time to time realize that decisions are made for comic drama, not necessary realism.

    X-men has so much more potential than what it is used for storywise. Mutants and Humans fighting is among the least interesting they can do. The potential of mutants actually integrated in the world is pretty interesting.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 10-14-2019 at 04:39 AM.

  9. #6189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    The idea of two mutants having a human child doesn't even make sense to me, how would the kid NOT inherit the X-Gene?
    Well, the mutants are not another race of humans… they are humans with an X-gene. It follows the same genetic rule as any other gene.
    Too bad… a whole thread has been erased in which someone who worked in the genetic field explained the conditions of that occurrence…
    I can add you rule out the possibily that a mutant may fall in love with a 'human'… so what, they aren't allowed to live in Krakoa?
    The Old Xavier dream is the only one that feels appropriate to me in the long run…
    "… something strong and soft and green,
    thrusting through the dead and petrified grayness."
    Alan Moore.

    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  10. #6190
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    The idea of two mutants having a human child doesn't even make sense to me, how would the kid NOT inherit the X-Gene?
    The same way two humans would have a mutant child...like Kate e.g. it's quite random.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  11. #6191
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    It won't be from Hickman,A giant plot point is Mutants get waxed from Humans and Superhuman in conflict in one of Moria lives. Hickman isn't real the type of writer to contradict himself. It is comics I am sure they fight against somebody at some point but I don't see this leading to huge war Marvel vs X-men War. Magneto and Xavier know the outcome. There is far more likely to be Civil War in the mutants with Xavier/Cyclops versus Magneto or Apocalypse than Marvel vs X-men imo.



    Well what I am saying ,Is people shouldn't be shocked when this isn't the evil separatist or isolationist empire they thought it was going to be and don't be surprised in Wave 3 or in the future "When you have a settlement in New York and X-men living in the mansion", Don't be surprised when you get X-men in space/space colony with a home base on Mars.
    Exactatiously.
    Habitable space is definitely not an issue for the expected increase in mutant numbers.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  12. #6192
    Incredible Member Domino_Dare-Doll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Integration on humans terms have always been bad for the mutants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Xavier dream is a beautiful thought but always had been somewhat BS,
    These two points I don't agree with; for starters, we weren't humans who wanted integration, they wanted complete and full domination. That's very different; that's assimilation. They wanted, essentially 'humans living besides humans,' we've barely ever seen instances where mutants were celebrated by their human counterparts for being the people they are first rather than just the sum of their powers.

    Which leads in to why I don't agree with your second point; I don't see the original dream as BS. I see it firstly as an ideal we, as readers, should strive towards. Again, to clarify: not the assimilation of cultures into one, large, dominant monolith--but the peaceful living of each other's differences side-by-side, as Xavier intended. No, that doesn't mean that mutants should have just rolled over at every turn in the face of these very real threats they faced, no, it's not about peace-and-love-and-pacifism all the time, it's about fighting for your right to live and thrive alongside anyone else.

    Now, I won't deny: Krakoa as a nation is an excellent idea. It's much like creating a protected safe-space for mutants to gather, recoup and live should they so choose. However, I don't agree that Charles original dream should have been decried as dead in the water. Charles has basically just created a social divide between humans and mutants; he's eliminated integration not by forming the state, but in how he puts himself above humanity, which isn't true. Mutants are human. Just as we, in the real world, are all human regardless of our races, cultures or beliefs...and we don't have to be so militantly separate about it. We shouldn't be!

    Uniting the mutants is only one half of the fight, but pitting themselves against humanity indiscriminately isn't going to help anything; it's going to tear families apart and absolutely wreck any potential relations parents might yet have with their unborn mutant children and vice versa! What's to stop mutant parents viewing their human children as this 'other thing.' This "Oh, they'll just be as bad as the other humans outside, they won't love us anyway," thing? Same with humans and their mutant children "Oh, they won't be happy and they won't love us anyway."

    This isn't really true integration of culture and community; it's just people co-existing in different countries. If anything, that's just going to fuel the humans vs mutants narrative more; it won't be new.
    Last edited by Domino_Dare-Doll; 10-14-2019 at 04:45 AM.

  13. #6193
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Well, the mutants are not another race of humans… they are humans with an X-gene.
    They may be superior instead of sapiens, but both are still HOMO.
    Genkai nante nai (No limits), Zettai nante nai (No absolutes)

    The Current Hill that I Risk Dying On: #KrakoaNEVERMYXMEN
    "I promise, I'll definitely save you. With my tenth and final life, I WILL PROTECT YOU, MUTANDOKA!" ~HoMoira Kinross Akemi

  14. #6194
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Mutants are human.
    .
    The fiction says differently. Yes the science is wonky and it seem they don't know what mutants are suppose to be sometimes. But fiction intends mutants to be their own classification.

    Quote Originally Posted by Londo Bellian View Post
    They may be superior instead of sapiens, but both are still HOMO.
    Homo neanderthalensis

  15. #6195
    Incredible Member Domino_Dare-Doll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    The fiction says differently. Yes the science is wonky and it seem they don't know what mutants are suppose to be sometimes. But fiction intends mutants to be their own classification.
    No it doesn't; Moira herself says so during one of Senator Kelly's speech, during his election campaign. To quote: "Mutants are human ye daft git."

    If, as Hickman says, every X-men story matters, including this one, then is this now considered to be a retcon rather than re-contextualisation? Especially if this occurred within life 10 and even after Moira had committed herself to this path?

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