House of X & Powers of 10 discussion

[Triniking1234]

Those are endings. This is a beginning, they don’t compare.

Exactly. As I said it took his FF run a while to take off. It was just random adventures for a while.

I should really read Secret Warriors.

[Killerbee911]

I still don't agree with it, therefore I don't agree with Hickman's interpretation and, therefore, don't agree with the reasoning.

Let's just agree to disagree and leave it there; we won't get any further on this subject.

I am not trying to change your personal beliefs, It is fine you can interpret the books however you want BUT what can't be denied is being pushed in the book at the moment

branching humanity .jpg

I am pointing out what is being pushed in the books at the time. There is nothing to agree to disagree about

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I am not trying to change your personal beliefs, It is fine you can interpret the books however you want BUT what can't deny it what is being pushed in the books

branching humanity .jpg

I am pointing out what is being pushed in the books. There is nothing to agree to disagree about

Which is still part of Hickman's interpretation, which I disregard, because established canon before has in turn disagreed with it. You accept this current canon as is, I do not; agree to disagree.

[jwatson]

That’s your interpretation and it contradicts the book so not many will share it. Hickman is clearly indicating this isn’t the case and that Moira spent a long while trying to convince him to change his dream. I mean did you just not read the text pages?



Absolutely.

People are also forgetting Xavier switched his own mind twice. We don't know when or with what information but why would someone do that if they had no reservations. It's all right there. It's like Hickman was like okay let me make a little nod to everything people will try to dig in on.

[JKtheMac]

The fiction says differently. Yes the science is wonky and it seem they don't know what mutants are suppose to be sometimes. But fiction intends mutants to be their own classification.

There are contradictions in the canon but usually the designations are Homo sapiens sapiens and Homo sapiens superior. So same species different subspecies. We don’t really need to delve much deeper than this. Even hominid experts in our world argue about what is and isn’t a subspecies.

Many just use a shorthand and use homo neanderthalensis when they mean homo sapiens neanderthalensis. There used to be an insistence that different races were subspecies but the genetics of this just don’t bare scrutiny. So hominid species definitions have been controversial and disputed over the time period that Marvel has been writing these stories.

Homo neanderthalensis

Most people outside of Africa have a small proportion of Neanderthal DNA. One of the two species (or subspecies) must have had a reasonably successful dream of coexistence.

[Striderblack01]

This is not hill I care to fight on other than to point out which presentation they are on at the time. Right now it looks like the species push under Hickman. Once again Mutants stuff is wonky, The fiction should be more clear but the longer Hickman is on the book the more likely that will happen. Humans with a different genes not even that holds up completely because you can "cure" a mutant which suggests that mutants are viral based if you think about it.

I still don't agree with it, therefore I don't agree with Hickman's interpretation and, therefore, don't agree with the reasoning. As for the 'genetic cure', I don't see that as much different than how some scientists talk of 'curing' a genetic disability in an unborn fetus--Downs Syndrome for example, or even most strains of muscular dystrophy definitely not viral and a whole separate discussion on its own.

Let's just agree to disagree and leave it there; we won't get any further on this subject.

The small jaunt I took to look into this earlier was inconclusive.

I did find this:

Those aren't really hybrids, as mutants and humans aren't really separate species or race, but are only humans possessing or not the X-Gene. Wakandan scientists even stated that there has never been a proven case of genetic incompatibility, but have also stated that every mutation was different and some effects could perturb the reproduction process.[4] They are consequently fertile.[5]

It should be noted that first citation is from Black Panther vol 4 #16 (Bride of the Panther #3) and the second citation is missing.

I'm no biologist, so I've no idea if Homo superior is a subspecies of Homo sapien, or if both are separate species belonging to the same Genus.
I don't know what variations qualify the granting of a subspecies vs separate species, though I would think the X-gene is significant for at least one.

What I do know is that Marvel consistently bills mutants as a separate species.

[Devaishwarya]

I wonder: With Hox/Pox being the phenomenon that it is -- bringing new readers & bringing BACK readers long lost -- how many of these beliefs/opinions on either side feel more drastic by the LACK of back-issue-content?
How many of the opinions arguing against Krakoa are folks who stopped reading long ago, and therefore lack additional context to potentially inform/guide/shape this shift? And vice versa.

And I, having read from the 8Os right up until Utopia (which I appreciated in overall premise but Fraction is a garbage writer so...) and only seriously got back into the X-world with XMRed, am quite Okies with not having all the details and context of the past decade as I view HoX/PoX as a new starting point much like...Outback era, or Utopia era, Morrison era...just on a global scale with a global direction...the minutiae of the last fifteen years is by and large irrelevant to my enjoyment going forward...(especially if it can be argued that the last decade plus was mostly forgettable).

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

And I, having read from the 8Os right up until Utopia (which I appreciated in overall premise but Fraction is a garbage writer so...) and only seriously got back into the X-world with XMRed, am quite Okies with not having all the details and context of the past decade as I view HoX/PoX as a new starting point much like...Outback era, or Utopia era, Morrison era...just on a global scale with a global direction...the minutiae of the last fifteen years is by and large irrelevant to my enjoyment going forward...(especially if it can be argued that the last decade plus was mostly forgettable).

I wouldn't say it was forgettable; there's been growth in certain characters from there at least; Gambit and Rogue's marriage, X-23's reconciliation with her sense of self, Betsy and Kwannon, even how the team's younger selves fuelled a sense of growth for them. But then, that could just be a preference and taste thing; I tend to enjoy these characters on an individualised basis, mostly. *Shrug*

[JKtheMac]

The division among X-fans resulting from HoX/PoX is FASCINATING.

If anything it is more problematic to categorise readers than it is to categorise readings of the story. Half of the arguments here seem to make an assumption about people arguing against them and are placing them into camps that probably don’t exist.

I am sure I am not the only one that sees a separatist theme developing but at the same time believe that the book will explore that theme without segregation and if anything segregation will be held up as a bad thing at some point.

(An example of a separatist policy is only someone born in the country can be the president.)

I am sure I am not the only person that thinks canon has mostly been preserved but that there are some problems in canon that will probably need exploring in the books.

I am sure I am not the only person that believes Charles and Erik seem to be abandoning the dream but that the dream will prove important in the ongoing story.

I am sure I am not the only one that thinks inherent contradictions in a premise are good things not flaws.

[jamesslow]

The division among X-fans resulting from HoX/PoX is FASCINATING.

Some believe the Krakoan nation forfeits the X-Men from being "good guys".
Some believe the Krakoan nation is revolutionary.
Some believe this is too drastic a departure from "The Dream".
Some argue the dream died long ago and this is a pragmatic approach.
Some believe its high time they stopped taking it on the chin.
Some believe losing the underdog status lessens their appeal.
And so on and so on.

I wonder: With Hox/Pox being the phenomenon that it is -- bringing new readers & bringing BACK readers long lost -- how many of these beliefs/opinions on either side feel more drastic by the LACK of back-issue-content?
How many of the opinions arguing against Krakoa are folks who stopped reading long ago, and therefore lack additional context to potentially inform/guide/shape this shift? And vice versa.

Krakoa's evolution will be very intriguing to watch unfold, as will the readership's evolving acceptance/rejection and all that's in between. Feels like the Utopia days, which I absolutely loved.
Scott banded together with known "villains" to form a sovereign nation, offering their services TO humanity while embracing a zero tolerance policy OF humanity.
And now we have Krakoa.
Krakoa is populated by mutants who fought FOR humanity and by mutants who fought AGAINST humanity.
Heroes and villains, if we're to use very black and white terms. Then again INTENT/MOTIVATION for being radicalized is, in my humble opinion, essential in determining and understanding "villainy".


The division among X-fans mirrors that of Krakoa's populace. haha.

Then there are readers like me who felt taken out of the story by plot holes and logic gaps. Yes yes these are comic books but we've all agreed to suspend disbelief within the rules (and canon... not Canon) set within this 616 universe. But a retcon is a retcon is a retcon, and Hickman has pulled an egregious one to fix that Moira and Xavier have been privy to her past 9 lives from the beginning.

I cannot agree this is recontextualisation when you have Moira being raped by Joseph McT, Moira and Charles fighting over sending Vulcan et al to Krakoa, Charles and Erik fighting to the death over and over, occasionally succeeding -cough Onslaught cough-, Charles and Erik dying over and over with no assurance of surviving to continue the good fight, Charles grieving over Moira's death but wait it was just a golem, Dark Phoenix, The Phoenix Five, Xavier letting himself be killed by Scott and his brain be stolen by the Red Skull... this is literally the tip of the iceberg in the catalogue of present retcon contradicting unambiguous tales.

As I'd said, Hickman can tell the exact same story without returning Moira to her birth. With minimum hand waving he could have reincarnated her into Life X (616) after the events of Dreams End.

Wait I haven't finished ranting. X3 would have worked as Life IX. Just say Nimrod smashed Apoc and followed Logan back through the No Place hub, then pull Moira back from the jaws of death. (The caption "So ended the 9th life" can be attributed without shame to an unreliable narrator... it would have been foreshadowed by the two black panels both captioned "And then..." in HOX2.) Nimrod the Lesser then dunks her and Logan into femto tubes next to Cylobel until say Year 990, when they're woken by Nimrod the Greater and introduced into the Zoo. (And we can forget how impossible it is that Logan could look only slightly older after 1000 years and that his blood can give others his healing factor...)

Placing X3 in Life VI falls in many ways. Having lived 1000 years to learn that Mutants lose to Post Humans shouldn't lead Moira to learn under the RAF (there's no BAF...) how to kill Trasks over a span of I forget how many years. At the very least she should have recruited Logan to do the job within a couple of days.

This shouldn't segue into Life VIII, the Magneto option. Why would Moira spend 1000 years with Logan only to fight him with Erik two lives later. Same with Life IX where Moira helps Apoc kill all Earth's heroes including Charles, Erik and the rest of the X-Men.

Being excited for the stories to come, set-up by the latest push towards sovereignty, should not blind readers to the sloppy and wholly avoidable storytelling errors I've listed above...

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Then there are readers like me who felt taken out of the story by plot holes and logic gaps. Yes yes these are comic books but we've all agreed to suspend disbelief within the rules (and canon... not Canon) set within this 616 universe. But a retcon is a retcon is a retcon, and Hickman has pulled an egregious one to fix that Moira and Xavier have been privy to her past 9 lives from the beginning.

I cannot agree this is recontextualisation when you have Moira being raped by Joseph McT, Moira and Charles fighting over sending Vulcan et al to Krakoa, Charles and Erik fighting to the death over and over, occasionally succeeding -cough Onslaught cough-, Charles and Erik dying over and over with no assurance of surviving to continue the good fight, Charles grieving over Moira's death but wait it was just a golem, Dark Phoenix, The Phoenix Five, Xavier letting himself be killed by Scott and his brain be stolen by the Red Skull... this is literally the tip of the iceberg in the catalogue of present retcon contradicting unambiguous tales.

As I'd said, Hickman can tell the exact same story without returning Moira to her birth. With minimum hand waving he could have reincarnated her into Life X (616) after the events of Dreams End.

Wait I haven't finished ranting. X3 would have worked as Life IX. Just say Nimrod smashed Apoc and followed Logan back through the No Place hub, then pull Moira back from the jaws of death. (The caption "So ended the 9th life" can be attributed without shame to an unreliable narrator... it would have been foreshadowed by the two black panels both captioned "And then..." in HOX2.) Nimrod the Lesser then dunks her and Logan into femto tubes next to Cylobel until say Year 990, when they're woken by Nimrod the Greater and introduced into the Zoo. (And we can forget how impossible it is that Logan could look only slightly older after 1000 years and that his blood can give others his healing factor...)

Placing X3 in Life VI falls in many ways. Having lived 1000 years to learn that Mutants lose to Post Humans shouldn't lead Moira to learn under the RAF (there's no BAF...) how to kill Trasks over a span of I forget how many years. At the very least she should have recruited Logan to do the job within a couple of days.

This shouldn't segue into Life VII, the Magneto option. Why would Moira send 1000 years with Logan only to fight him with Erik two lives later. Same with Life VIII where Moira helps Apoc kill all Earth's heroes including Logan, Charles, Erik and the rest of the X-Men.

Being excited for the stories to come, set-up by the latest push towards sovereignty, should not blind readers to the sloppy and wholly avoidable storytelling errors I've listed above...

Definitely agree with this! Looking forward to something new shouldn't be at the expense of ignoring all that came before it, or worse, decrying it as irrelevant. There's a reason we've followed this far, after all, and a reason we love these characters. They can't all just be painted under the same voice just because one retcon apparently 'justifies' it. Even if it's all just because, as Hickman's once said in an interview "It's because I say so," that still won't resolve all of this, nor get every reader to just agree with what's going.

[Devaishwarya]

People are also forgetting Xavier switched his own mind twice. We don't know when or with what information but why would someone do that if they had no reservations. It's all right there. It's like Hickman was like okay let me make a little nod to everything people will try to dig in on.

Pretty much. HiX-Man knew/know exactly what he's doing to trigger the readership.
And he's been quite successful in that.

[Devaishwarya]

Definitely agree with this! Looking forward to something new shouldn't be at the expense of ignoring all that came before it, or worse, decrying it as irrelevant. There's a reason we've followed this far, after all, and a reason we love these characters. They can't all just be painted under the same voice just because one retcon apparently 'justifies' it. Even if it's all just because, as Hickman's once said in an interview "It's because I say so," that still won't resolve all of this, nor get every reader to just agree with what's going.

But that is a personal choice based on one's personal interest and expectation.
My reasoning why this new Krakoa era works for me "should" "could" and "would" be any reason I hold to...regardless of what came bafore, regardless of what the writer says in an interview, and most certainly regardless of what other readers may think and feel.
I lLOVE the new Krakoa premise for reasons that are relevant and inmportant to me and only me, and I'm not apologising for that nor am I debating that.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

But that is a personal choice based on one's personal interest and expectation.
My reasoning why this new Krakoa era works for me "should" "could" and "would" be any reason I hold to...regardless of what came bafore, regardless of what the writer says in an interview, and most certainly regardless of what other readers may think and feel.
I lLOVE the new Krakoa premise for reasons that are relevant and inmportant to me and only me, and I'm not apologising for that nor am I debating that.

Well, yeah; exactly! As you speak for yourself and why you love this direction, I'm just speaking for myself and why I don't think it works for me. I like the ideas that are being utilised in regards to Krakoa, I just don't enjoy how Hickman's getting us there which, just like you, are for reasons important to me. It's as Scott Mc'Cloud says in debating comics: reader enjoyment comes from our own experiences--we project onto these stories both positively and negatively.

[JKtheMac]

As I'd said, Hickman can tell the exact same story without returning Moira to her birth. With minimum hand waving he could have reincarnated her into Life X (616) after the events of Dreams End.

You can say it over and over but it doesn’t make it any more logical than when you first said it. This is the story. The story can’t be compared to a nonexistent one that resides unwritten in your head.