Hajime Saitou vs Shinomori Aoshi

[BitVyper]

1. Standard Khazan battle
2. As above, except all their memories of each other have been erased and they get no basic knowledge.

[Guy1]

1. Standard Khazan battle
2. As above, except all their memories of each other have been erased and they get no basic knowledge.

1: An awesome fight to be sure, but I think I'll back Aoshi. His flowing movement seems like a good match for the straight forward Gatotsu. Plus he knows what to look out for.

2: Mostly the same, but Saito might be able to catch him off guard with a Zero Stance this time.

[Len Ikari145]

Yeah, unless Saitou has come up with new techniques in the Hokkaido arc (and so far, that doesn't seem to be the case as of yet), I see Aoshi outmaneuvering Saitou and exploiting his blind spots.

[BitVyper]

I'm not sure I'd count on the flowing movement. IIRC, its only real success was against early Kenshin, at the time when he was still operating at a fraction of his ability. It didn't push him the way Saitou did.

Granted, there's some indication that it would have been effective against Shishio if Aoshi hadn't been injured, but overall as a technique, I think it's kind of lacking for feats to demonstrate that it's something Saitou won't see through. In fact, as I recall, his fight with the blind guy suggested that Saitou has a pretty well developed inner eye.

[Kuro]

Ehhh... I’ll give a slight majority to Aoshi.

Towards the end, one of the filler villains gave Saitoh something of a challenge and all he did was just side step a little. Aoshi otoh has much better foot movement so that Saitoh will get tagged one way or another.

Saitoh does have insane durability though.. having survived an explosion and all that.

Aoshi 7/10 for overall more variety and he’s got beast stats as well and is a super martial artist to boot.

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

Aoshi 10/10.
Was xonfirmed he got stronger during the Enisbi Arc whereas Saitou stayed the same between Shishio and Enishi. Mind yiu, the confirmation was basically just dialogue, but regardless Aoshi strikes me as a bad stylitistic match up to Saitou.

[BitVyper]

Towards the end, one of the filler villains gave Saitoh something of a challenge

To be clear, this is meant to be the comic versions of the characters, not the anime.

[Miburo]

To be clear, this is meant to be the comic versions of the characters, not the anime.

I think he meant one of those misc guys before the Enishi fight.

I do think the blind spot thing might be overplayed here, though. That dude ended up getting his face crushed the second Saito bothered to do something slightly different. Not to mention Kenshin admitted said blind spot was something he was aware of for ages, and never really managed to capitalize on. Usui's entire thing was pretty much predicting things, etc. (Admittedly, Usui was also some mind games stuff).

It's also not entirely clear Aoshi knows about said blindspot. All those mook fights were at the same time, weren't they? (I really can't remember). I mean, Aoshi is a smart enough guy to figure it out after a time or two, but I don't think he's going to instantly discern it.

I'm not saying Aoshi wouldn't capitalize, but I don't really think it's a death sentence here, especially considering the only person who managed to do so to the point the fight was pretty much settled was like...Shishio, I guess, and half his thing was 'Any attack I've seen I figure out how to nullify.'


And I also don't really hold that mook fight against Saito, those guys were actually pretty good. Wasn't one of those guys copying Aoshi's moves as he did them, and blocking his attacks with said attacks despite never having seen them before or something?

...I couldn't figure out if this thread was to bait me our not....I'll have to think about it, but I don't think Saito is so slow that he's a sitting duck, since IIRC didn't he bust through that door and try to take Shishio's head before him or anyone else could actually bother to move.

...Okay, I'm maybe slightly biased,but yeah.

[Miburo]

1: An awesome fight to be sure, but I think I'll back Aoshi. His flowing movement seems like a good match for the straight forward Gatotsu. Plus he knows what to look out for.

2: Mostly the same, but Saito might be able to catch him off guard with a Zero Stance this time.

Technically, knowing what to look for with Saito doesn't matter that much, does it? His whole game has been straight forward for ages, and I don't think either of them have actually watched the other fight.

..Also, this is a weak argument, but I think Saito would probably have a better idea of Aoshi's abilities, than the other way around. He had information on the Oniwaban group thing, he knew what Aoshi was up doing in the mountains when he went crazy, etc, and he was even pulling out maps to Shishio's secret base and going on about how Police Spying is the best spying.

Admittedly, I do think that Aoshi would have less to look out for than Saito would, but eh.

...Wait, was Aoshi there for the Mumyou fight? I honestly can't remember.

I'm not sure I'd count on the flowing movement. IIRC, its only real success was against early Kenshin, at the time when he was still operating at a fraction of his ability. It didn't push him the way Saitou did.

Granted, there's some indication that it would have been effective against Shishio if Aoshi hadn't been injured, but overall as a technique, I think it's kind of lacking for feats to demonstrate that it's something Saitou won't see through. In fact, as I recall, his fight with the blind guy suggested that Saitou has a pretty well developed inner eye.

I kinda remember that whole Shishio fight as "Aoshi stalls for time, and Shishio knows it and toys with him.". Aoshi was half dead and was barely playing defense, and Shishio was taunting him the whole time, wasn't he?

I remember him doing the flowing movement, then Shishio actually left himself open to bait Aoshi into attacking, and then he pretty much got treated like the entire cast did at that point, with Shishio going on about how Aoshi was barely worth his time right now...

In the anime atleast. That tends to stand out more than the manga, that whole fight to me.

[Guy1]

I think he meant one of those misc guys before the Enishi fight.

I do think the blind spot thing might be overplayed here, though. That dude ended up getting his face crushed the second Saito bothered to do something slightly different. Not to mention Kenshin admitted said blind spot was something he was aware of for ages, and never really managed to capitalize on. Usui's entire thing was pretty much predicting things, etc. (Admittedly, Usui was also some mind games stuff).

It's also not entirely clear Aoshi knows about said blindspot. All those mook fights were at the same time, weren't they? (I really can't remember). I mean, Aoshi is a smart enough guy to figure it out after a time or two, but I don't think he's going to instantly discern it.

I'm not saying Aoshi wouldn't capitalize, but I don't really think it's a death sentence here, especially considering the only person who managed to do so to the point the fight was pretty much settled was like...Shishio, I guess, and half his thing was 'Any attack I've seen I figure out how to nullify.'


And I also don't really hold that mook fight against Saito, those guys were actually pretty good. Wasn't one of those guys copying Aoshi's moves as he did them, and blocking his attacks with said attacks despite never having seen them before or something?

...I couldn't figure out if this thread was to bait me our not....I'll have to think about it, but I don't think Saito is so slow that he's a sitting duck, since IIRC didn't he bust through that door and try to take Shishio's head before him or anyone else could actually bother to move.

...Okay, I'm maybe slightly biased,but yeah.

Of the four stars, Seiryu and Suzaku were by far the best of them. Byakko only succeeded in annoying Sano and Genbu lost to Yahiko.

Seiryu is the one who fought Saito. Seiryū said if he slid into the blind spot created by the former Shinsengumi’s right arm, his move was vanquished, as he did exactly that and slashed near Saito’s shoulder. He tried using Gatotsu again, but Seiryū slashed his side and the Sū-shin warrior asked the former Shinsengumi if he now understood his move was useless. Seiryū told Saito to give up or bring out his next move, though he’d just conquer it right away. So Saito did a minor improvisation, grabbed his face and took him out.

Suzaku was copying Aoshi's moves as he was doing them.
Aoshi drew his kodachi and used his Onmyo Kosa, but the Sū-shin warrior used the same move, countering it. Suzaku explained his ability to mimic moves and said in other words, Aoshi’s moves would be reflected back to him until he died. After the omnitsu tried using his Kaiten Kenbu Rokuren, Suzaku did the same and noted that it looked like that was his best move. Then he knocked Aoshi's swords away so Aoshi just shrugged and switched to martial arts, stomped him, broke his sword and took him out.

[BitVyper]

I think he meant one of those misc guys before the Enishi fight.

Oh THAT guy. Yeah that was blatantly Saitou not trying. To be honest, I think the only time we've really seen Saitou drop his cool facade and go all out, is against killer-mode Kenshin. Otherwise, even when he takes hits, it always just seems like he's taking measured risks to put himself in the best position to gatotsu somebody. I get the impression that he's kind of good at tricking people into showing him their moves in nonlethal ways.

I kinda remember that whole Shishio fight as "Aoshi stalls for time, and Shishio knows it and toys with him.". Aoshi was half dead and was barely playing defense, and Shishio was taunting him the whole time, wasn't he?

Oh yeah totally. Like he definitely wasn't doing as well as he could have, and I'm honestly of the opinion that any of Saitou, Kenshin, or Aoshi probably would beat Shishio in an arena match (Saitou and Kenshin both land hits on the guy that would have killed him if they were in top form/using a real sword). However, the point is more that the flowing movement doesn't actually have great feats for establishing that it will confuse someone of Saitou's caliber. Aoshi got a lot stronger by the time Shishio came around, but he also changed up his fighting style a lot, so in absence of good feats, I don't think it can be suggested to have gotten any better. To ME, it always looked like he'd largely left the technique behind and only pulled it out on Shishio because it was a good way to eat some time.

[Miburo]

Aoshi 10/10.
Was xonfirmed he got stronger during the Enisbi Arc whereas Saitou stayed the same between Shishio and Enishi. Mind yiu, the confirmation was basically just dialogue, but regardless Aoshi strikes me as a bad stylitistic match up to Saitou.

I kinda thought they were talking spiritually.

I mean...Kyoto Arc Aoshi was...Not in a good spot. It was a cold summer for my boy.

He spent all his time training, because of the guilt he felt for his dead friends who all pretty much jumped infront of bullets for him, and spent a **** ton of time just beating the **** out of people in a forest on a mountain for reasons I'm not sure existed outside of training.

His entire vendetta against Kenshin was 'If I kill you, the Oniwaban are the strongest, so yeah." And I vaguely recall him planning to kill himself post fight.

He then got duped into going to Kyoto because Saito let it slip Kenshin was going there--And Saito thought there was a chance he might come in handy, or wanted to stop a fight, I can't recall-- and then Aoshi joined the main bad guy, solely to pick a fight with Kenshin, the rest of Japan can kiss his ass.

This isn't even getting into telling Miaso to go **** herself, or barely holding back when he slice and diced Okina. Shishio even called him a guy who rode on the edge of madness.

Kenshin even specifically took the Aoshi fight, which he didn't really have to, in the hopes he could bring him back to normal.

It kinda works, stuff happens, IIRC, Aoshi spends time meditating in solitude, and the next time we see him, he's actually a pretty chill dood, and seems to have made peace with himself, and doesn't fight with that same burden.

I could buy him being even stronger than he was in Kyoto, but I really do think it had more to do with his soul, which was severely damaged until then.

[Miburo]

Oh THAT guy. Yeah that was blatantly Saitou not trying. To be honest, I think the only time we've really seen Saitou drop his cool facade and go all out, is against killer-mode Kenshin. Otherwise, even when he takes hits, it always just seems like he's taking measured risks to put himself in the best position to gatotsu somebody. I get the impression that he's kind of good at tricking people into showing him their moves in nonlethal ways.



Oh yeah totally. Like he definitely wasn't doing as well as he could have, and I'm honestly of the opinion that any of Saitou, Kenshin, or Aoshi probably would beat Shishio in an arena match (Saitou and Kenshin both land hits on the guy that would have killed him if they were in top form/using a real sword). However, the point is more that the flowing movement doesn't actually have great feats for establishing that it will confuse someone of Saitou's caliber. Aoshi got a lot stronger by the time Shishio came around, but he also changed up his fighting style a lot, so in absence of good feats, I don't think it can be suggested to have gotten any better. To ME, it always looked like he'd largely left the technique behind and only pulled it out on Shishio because it was a good way to eat some time.

I...kinda think Shishio still wins, but I'm always on the fence. I mean, they were all injured, but I have a hard time imagining anyone else monstering through them the way he did, and he's almost crippled. 15 minutes really did start to take its toll on him. I admit it's on flimsy grounds, but it's just my gut, but the way he just ROFLSTOMPED them, was insane, even tired.

...And really, I don't know how Shishio got him an adamantium headband, but we see Saito destroy everything in like a two foot radius with his sneak attack, and somehow the metal is just fine? That was kinda pushing it lol


....But, I do think a real blade and no knowledge makes it harder. I would say he'd probably lose arena matches, but scenario matches might work for him. I tend to take his 'I see through moves I've seen' before at face value, looking at how effortlessly he counters everything for the most part, and his stats aren't really that far removed from them, IMO.

And for what its worth, Saito and co talk about Shishio almost in a tone of reverence when they were comparing Shishio to Enishi at first lol.

[BitVyper]

Scenarios play to Shishio's strengths, yeah. He's in their tier of swordsmanship, but instead of a super powered technique or something, the thing that takes him that extra step is situational control and prep. Kenshin has the best moves, Aoshi has a nicely varied style with a lot of tricks, Saitou knows how to set up the same perfect attack every time in every situation, and Shishio can play a scenario to his advantage in the extreme. They all have other things going for them, of course, but when all is said and done, those are kind of the bits that make the difference.

[Guy1]

Scenarios play to Shishio's strengths, yeah. He's in their tier of swordsmanship, but instead of a super powered technique or something, the thing that takes him that extra step is situational control and prep. Kenshin has the best moves, Aoshi has a nicely varied style with a lot of tricks, Saitou knows how to set up the same perfect attack every time, and Shishio can play a scenario to his advantage in the extreme. They all have other things going for them, of course, but when all is said and done, those are kind of the bits that make the difference.

I think it's also worth stating that his blunt force durability is just flat out bonkers. Shishio took a fifteen hit combo from Kenshin counting the five hits and the KuzuRyuSen, then took the super version of the Ougi and still got up.

He was basically dead at that point from overheating, but he still got up.