Gotham was not a great series

[sunofdarkchild]

Kingverse Batman wants to quit. That's only in Tom King's comics. Most other versions, including Timmverse after Mask of the Phantasm don't want to quit and enjoys being Batman. It's a reoccurring theme that Bruce is addicted to the thrill of the hunt. Have you not read the 75th anniversary collection of classic stories? Have you not read any of the Legends of the Dark Knight series? Dixon's Batman? Rucka's Detective Comics? Snyder's Batman, any of the New 52 or pre Crisis Batman? Is your experience limited to just King's Batman which is the Batman for people who don't know or like Batman outside of fan fiction?

Timmverse Batman's greatest wish was revealed to live a normal life while someone else was Batman in the episode 'Perchance to Dream.' He quit being Batman and got married in the episode 'Chemistry.' Him wanting to not be Batman did not end with Mask of the Phantasm.

The idea of Bruce wanting to quit but also being addicted to it is not contradictory. Rachel Dawes calls him out on it in TDK. It's the nature of addiction that it is very difficult to quit even when you desperately want to and are hurting yourself.

[Aahz]

He looks like Bruce does in most comic flashbacks, and has excellent bone structure. He'll be attractive enough once he's in his late 20s and 30s. Until then, yes, he looks weird.

He would be still to short and very likely slim (ok Keaton and bale were also not that Buff) for the role, and the Catwoman actress has the same problem.

Thats imo a comon problem with teen actors, they often cast relatively short and young looking teens, and those are later not that suited for adult roles.

[Batman1970]

I for one gave "Gotham" a try... 2 seasons... At the start of the 3rd, I kept thinking, "Nope, not gonna go through a WASTE of an hour a week, for this NONSENSE!

I'm all for a LIVE ACTION Batman

S E R I O U S Series. I want an ADULT Bruce, with him EITHER A: Just starting out, or B: A Seasoned Crimefighter.

Lord knows, there's plenty of comics/stories/arcs that could be used, the writers, just have to make it "fit" the show.




This could be a GREAT series..... Come on Networks, AND DC, get this done!!!

[RickWJ324]

I for one gave "Gotham" a try... 2 seasons... At the start of the 3rd, I kept thinking, "Nope, not gonna go through a WASTE of an hour a week, for this NONSENSE!

I'm all for a LIVE ACTION Batman

S E R I O U S Series. I want an ADULT Bruce, with him EITHER A: Just starting out, or B: A Seasoned Crimefighter.

Lord knows, there's plenty of comics/stories/arcs that could be used, the writers, just have to make it "fit" the show.




This could be a GREAT series..... Come on Networks, AND DC, get this done!!!

I've been waiting for a GOOD adult series of Batman forever!! We've gotten a few movies but a series on HBO, NETFLIX, etc would be epic! There's plenty of suits, sets, props from the various movies that I'm sure could be reused to help with budget concerns.

Arrow is as close as we've gotten to a Batman show so far. Ollie's character and 90% of his villains are more BATMAN than GREEN ARROW.

[josai21]

I kind of suspect they didn't think the show would last long enough to have Bruce Wayne become Batman. So David Mazouz were perfectly adequate as a frightened little kid.
And at this point in time it isn't worth recasting the role. He does have the height. If the show lasted even longer maybe he could have bulked up Perhaps in the finale they might
do a time jump and have someone bulky be Batman in the shadows. Anyway in most incarnations Catwoman kicks major butt. And Ruby Rose, who is going to be Batwoman, looked
sort of skinny next to even Supergirl in the CW crossover. But she could kick butt. So it doesn't take someone muscle bound to have crazy ninja skills.

I mean, this is what they’re doing for the finale. David mazous face but they have a bulkier stunt double.

I personally think David has killed it as a young Bruce. Give him five years irl to really bulk up and he could be a great Batman

There is a reason movies cast older actors as teens/young adults. Their bodies are more mature and able to have that muscle. David is only 18 and obviously hasn’t been on a muscle building regimen.

[Arctic Cyclist]

Timmverse Batman's greatest wish was revealed to live a normal life while someone else was Batman in the episode 'Perchance to Dream.' He quit being Batman and got married in the episode 'Chemistry.' Him wanting to not be Batman did not end with Mask of the Phantasm.

The idea of Bruce wanting to quit but also being addicted to it is not contradictory. Rachel Dawes calls him out on it in TDK. It's the nature of addiction that it is very difficult to quit even when you desperately want to and are hurting yourself.

Having rewatched those episodes, I question your interpretation. Perchance to Dream was Bruce stuck in a Lotus Eating Machine that was supposed to give him his greatest desires and happiness yet he rejected it ruthlessly, because, as we all know from Batman Beyond, Bruce's happiness is actually tied to being Batman. If he isn't Batman than he is nothing.

Chemistry was another case where Bruce was drugged and manipulated against his will into believing that a romantic relationship without Batman was something he desired.

Both episodes explore the idea of him giving up Batman, or never having been Batman with someone else having had the role. Both episodes also hammer home that being Batman, with all the pain, suffering, and loss it entails is what he ultimately wants. This is something that is regularly explored by writers both in and out of comics. Tom King is the only who has decided that a) Catwoman really is Bruce's one true love post silver age, and b) Bruce is desperately unhappy and wants to quit being Batman. Furthermore, it contradicts other current interpretations of Batman in Super Sons, Detective Comics, All Star Batman, Justice League, and even Deathstroke. It appeals to a certain section of readers, yes. Those would be the white males. Hence the consistent fall in sales, both digital and physical.

For all of its flaws, and yes, Gotham has a great deal of flaws starting with including Selina in Julie Madison's, bringing in Ra's long before he has any reason to give a damn about Bruce, Silver St Cloud as a 13 year old honey trap, everything Poison Ivy related, it at least gets Bruce right. Which cannot be said of Kingverse Batman.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

Gotham's a good show, definitely better than the Arrowverse shows or Titans. Especially if you look at it as an "elseworlds." The villains are great, Bruce and Alfred are solid. Jim can be a bit of a hypocritical bore sometimes, but he's mostly ok. The city of Gotham is done well in that it feels like a character of itself and is stylized in an interesting way. And the tone is exactly what I would want from a show like this, dark and silly.

[sunofdarkchild]

Having rewatched those episodes, I question your interpretation. Perchance to Dream was Bruce stuck in a Lotus Eating Machine that was supposed to give him his greatest desires and happiness yet he rejected it ruthlessly, because, as we all know from Batman Beyond, Bruce's happiness is actually tied to being Batman. If he isn't Batman than he is nothing.

Chemistry was another case where Bruce was drugged and manipulated against his will into believing that a romantic relationship without Batman was something he desired.

Both episodes explore the idea of him giving up Batman, or never having been Batman with someone else having had the role. Both episodes also hammer home that being Batman, with all the pain, suffering, and loss it entails is what he ultimately wants. This is something that is regularly explored by writers both in and out of comics. Tom King is the only who has decided that a) Catwoman really is Bruce's one true love post silver age, and b) Bruce is desperately unhappy and wants to quit being Batman. Furthermore, it contradicts other current interpretations of Batman in Super Sons, Detective Comics, All Star Batman, Justice League, and even Deathstroke. It appeals to a certain section of readers, yes. Those would be the white males. Hence the consistent fall in sales, both digital and physical.

For all of its flaws, and yes, Gotham has a great deal of flaws starting with including Selina in Julie Madison's, bringing in Ra's long before he has any reason to give a damn about Bruce, Silver St Cloud as a 13 year old honey trap, everything Poison Ivy related, it at least gets Bruce right. Which cannot be said of Kingverse Batman.

He questioned it because it contradicted his memories, eventually accepted it, and then rejected it because he tried reading and found that all books were gibberish which convinced him it was all a dream. His rejection of it had nothing to do with his wanting to be Batman. In Chemistry the 'wife' states that the pheromones were used only to create an initial attraction, not to convince people to marry the plant people. And since Poison Ivy never knew he was Batman she could not plant the idea of him wanting to quit. That came entirely from him. She was not out to make her victims change personalities or give up their jobs. She needed them to be as normal as possible so as to avoid suspicion.

Please provide direct evidence from your sources that Bruce wants to be Batman more than anything and has no desire to ever quit. The only time I can ever remember seeing Batman characterized that way is under Frank Miller in his Dark Knight Returns universe.

We've seen Bruce want to quit being Batman in canon before. After Knightfall he wanted to quit and "join the human race." Tim saw how much happier he was and felt guilty for telling him what Azrael had done and forcing him back into the cowl.

I will also point out that this is the sort of idea that often varies from writer to writer with the same character. Tim Drake is a prime example. In his own solo series in the late 90s and early 2000s he was depicted as wanting to quit to lead a normal life and not wanting to be Robin forever, while in Young Justice at the same time he was saying that he would continue as long as crime exists. Some writers wrote him as saying that he desperately did not want to be Batman when he grew up, while others wrote that he desperately wanted to be Batman.

The idea of Bruce wanting to quit has had plenty of history and has been shown numerous times, from Mask of the Phantasm, Knightfall, to Batman Forever, and others, to be dismissed as a mischaracterization. And even different writers doing different things do not have to contradict, as Bruce's emotional and mental states can vary and effect whether he wants to continue being Batman or not. That may be why Tim had such a strange characterization in Young Justice. When hanging out with Superboy, Impulse, and other super-powered teens he may not have wanted to give that up, but when back in Gotham and getting down and dirty in a city without hope he couldn't wait to quit.

[Mutant 77]

He looks like Bruce does in most comic flashbacks, and has excellent bone structure. He'll be attractive enough once he's in his late 20s and 30s. Until then, yes, he looks weird. Teenagers look, sound, and smell weird. It's biology, the only people who should find teenagers attractive are other teenagers. If you're an adult who expects to be attracted to teenagers there's something fundamentally wrong with you. I personally enjoyed watching him grow up and start evolving into a person. He's exactly what I would have expected Bruce to be based on various comics, although Gotham's Bruce is considerably tamer and more considerate than most comic versions of Bruce as a teen.

I got your points, and I think they are plausible and reasonable enough to be pondered, but I just think they should have dropped the kid angle after Season 2 and do a 5 years time-jump with a more adult actor resembling Bruce Wayne in a better way.

[DR14]

The show had great casting and cinematography for a TV show, and it's generally been fun. My main issues with it were:

-They way overused Hugo Strange as a deus ex machina
-There were too many characters with "plot armor" so their suspenseful moments didn't have much kick to them.
-Jim Gordon wasn't a very compelling lead character, although most of the reason for that is the show's insistence to romantically pair him with characters not too compelling themselves.
-Too many Bat roques (fine with Penguin, Riddler, and Selina though), it felt like the show's writers decided to just put them on to showcase their spin on them.

[Jackalope89]

The show had great casting and cinematography for a TV show, and it's generally been fun. My main issues with it were:

-They way overused Hugo Strange as a deus ex machina
-There were too many characters with "plot armor" so their suspenseful moments didn't have much kick to them.
-Jim Gordon wasn't a very compelling lead character, although most of the reason for that is the show's insistence to romantically pair him with characters not too compelling themselves.
-Too many Bat roques (fine with Penguin, Riddler, and Selina though), it felt like the show's writers decided to just put them on to showcase their spin on them.

Kind of wished they hadn't offed the Mafia families so early on. As those were the ones that Batman normally put away first, before the real nutjobs came out of the woodworks.

With certain exceptions, of course (Penguin obviously being from that era works just fine).

[Mace Dolex]

it's ok as an Elseworlds interpretation but I wouldn't recommend binge watching as it is extremely frustrating with barely two episodes back to back.

[Kingcrimsonprog]

What I really want to happen now, is for someome to make a Batman TV show as good as season 1 of Daredevil.

[Bat-Meal]

For anyone interested, here is the trailer for the finale:

[Bat-Meal]

And here is another teaser: