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  1. #61
    Moderator oldschool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    It's...ok. And that was, what, the second arc? I always felt that USM peaked early.
    Yes, second arc. I personally think it was more than just "OK" but definitely agree with you that USM peaked early. To me, it was very good to excellent for approx the first 50-60 issues or so. After that, it became a bit rote as it presented updated versions of all the classic Spidey foes and, once it delved into the Venom/Carnage stuff, it lost a bit of what made the title work early on IMO.
    I miss Kevin Nichols. Not as much as bacon, but still...

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    Yes, second arc. I personally think it was more than just "OK" but definitely agree with you that USM peaked early. To me, it was very good to excellent for approx the first 50-60 issues or so. After that, it became a bit rote as it presented updated versions of all the classic Spidey foes and, once it delved into the Venom/Carnage stuff, it lost a bit of what made the title work early on IMO.
    I think it had the same problem as mainline Marvel. It fell to the whims of the Greater Marvel Universe. Imagine how the series would be if Ultimatum never happened. Bendis might've actually finished the story threads he was planning.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I think it had the same problem as mainline Marvel. It fell to the whims of the Greater Marvel Universe. Imagine how the series would be if Ultimatum never happened. Bendis might've actually finished the story threads he was planning.
    Ultimatum definitely delivered a fatal wound to the Ultimate universe. It didn't kill it immediately but after that series, the UU was a bleeder.

    That said, I think Bendis still got around to pretty much everything he really wanted to (the real tragedy of the UU's demise was that Hickman's Ultimate plans were cut short). I think USM's problem was that, in the end, it was a riff on classic Spidey that seldom hit the same notes quite as well. The villains were never as great as their 616 counterparts and the storylines were rarely as memorable.

    As I said earlier, I think the greatest imprint the book made is that it provided a viable blueprint for updating Spidey's story to modern times in other media. And, of course, past Peter's story you've got Miles, which is arguably an even greater legacy for the book.

  4. #64
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    The three years of 1610 after Ultimatum was the most interesting era of the line. Too bad 65% of it went nowhere after.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    The three years of 1610 after Ultimatum was the most interesting era of the line. Too bad 65% of it went nowhere after.
    The relaunch of the UU with Hickman on Ultimates, Nick Spencer on X-Men, and Bendis on Spidey, was incredible. That should have been what rebounded the Ultimate line from the lingering stench of Ultimatum.

    It's one of the tragedies of modern comics that it debuted at the same time as DC's New52 and got slaughtered. Of course it didn't help that Marvel themselves was running Fear Itself at the time, I believe, which certainly didn't help the new Ultimate line have much of a chance of standing out.

    I sometimes wonder if the timing had been better and the new launch had been able to find its footing, where those books would have gone.

  6. #66
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Ultimatum definitely delivered a fatal wound to the Ultimate universe. It didn't kill it immediately but after that series, the UU was a bleeder.

    That said, I think Bendis still got around to pretty much everything he really wanted to (the real tragedy of the UU's demise was that Hickman's Ultimate plans were cut short). I think USM's problem was that, in the end, it was a riff on classic Spidey that seldom hit the same notes quite as well. The villains were never as great as their 616 counterparts and the storylines were rarely as memorable.

    As I said earlier, I think the greatest imprint the book made is that it provided a viable blueprint for updating Spidey's story to modern times in other media. And, of course, past Peter's story you've got Miles, which is arguably an even greater legacy for the book.
    I guess in some ways it paved the way for an adaption like Spectacular which took a lot of the concepts or ideas Ultimate had but implemented them better and more memorably.

  7. #67
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    I'll take ASM over Ultimate Spider-Man any day. USM was fine for what it was. I read it as it came out but never went back to it. On the other hand, I frequently revisit all eras of ASM and the satellite titles.
    Could be a generational thing. USM got me into comics, so it is essentially the "real" comics Spidey for me. I'd also argue that was a finer-tuned, better structured take on the mythos then 616 was (although comparing something that was able to have hindsight vs. the thing that invented all the tropes is really dicey).

    My main point is that a single Spidey in ASM doesn't appeal to me very much, given that I go to other places for that stuff. Him being a married man in 616 made ASM "same but different" for me, if that makes any sense. Mileage may vary (I mean, there are some pretty darn good 616 stuff pre-marriage, I will not deny that).

    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    I think he's referring to a series that has been consistently great from writer to writer over the past 20 years. You go from Smith & the Marvel Knights, to Bendis, to Brubaker, to Waid, to Soule, to Zdarksy, that's such an excellent line up of runs.

    Like you said, those series you mentioned are excellent, there is just something impressive of the consistent quality Daredevil has.
    Fair enough. I would argue that the Hawkey series did maintain pretty consistent quality across the three iterations it had (Fraction's, All-New, and Kate Biship), but was a much shorter time span and not long-lived in the gran scheme of things. Daredevil is way out of my wheelhouse, but I have heard consistently good things about the classics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Well, it did have the same creative team throughout the duration of its run.

    Which is a plus for it on one hand but a detriment on the other. USM is all Bendis/Bagley. A good team but...there's no variety. Whereas with ASM, the list of excellent creators goes on and on. There's a uniformity to USM that feels a bit stultifying to me. ASM has a whole kaleidoscope of talent, all of whom have added something unique and interesting to the ASM tapestry. And ASM is on-going. It's still a living thing. USM is long done and over with. And I wasn't crazy about how it all (on Peter's end) ended up.
    I think if you take into account the Miles issues and Spider-Men II, Ultimate Peter ends up doing pretty well. As far as the "one writer vs. a variety," I can see the point, but I think that USM having one writer did give it more cohesion. Tangents are fine, and I think the differences did give both USM and ASM different advantages over the other, but passing it off from writer to writer does mean that ASM consistency is all off and things can be pretty messy in the details. Also, USM is done, but, between being a series with a beginning, middle, and end, it's more accessible to new readers then ASM could ever hope to be at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    And, honestly, I can't think of any particular USM storylines that I would point to as being classic or even particularly great. It's all just kind of...there.
    "Learning Curve" frequently mades "best of" lists, and "Ultimate Clone Saga" is generally well-regarded. I'd also make a case that the "Ultimatum: Requiem" and "Scorpion" stories are underrated. Argue if you want if most of the other stuff was "there," but it still managed ten years as a solid series and for an AU; no other series in the franchise (except for Spider-Girl) pulled off that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    I think USM's biggest legacy is that it served as a blueprint for how to update Spider-Man into other media for the modern age and keep the essential parts of the mythos without having it seem like a retro thing.
    Well, it is being used for the movies now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    It's...ok. And that was, what, the second arc? I always felt that USM peaked early.
    I agree that a case can be more then made that the first volume of comics was the best and that nothing else after that really worked. Still, though, if I was a writer, I'd kill to be that bad if Bendis was going downhill at that point.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Also, USM is done, but, between being a series with a beginning, middle, and end, it's more accessible to new readers then ASM could ever hope to be at this point.
    Well, if that were actually true and USM had such an advantage over mainstream MU Spidey, it would still be running today rather than be long since cancelled.

    USM had a good run and left it's mark but as time went on it wasn't such an appealing entry point that it was able to continue as a viable alternative to the real thing.

  9. #69
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Well, if that were actually true and USM had such an advantage over mainstream MU Spidey, it would still be running today rather than be long since cancelled.
    AUs are always at a disadvantage over whatever's considered the real deal. As far as advantages go, it's the one getting adapted into the movies, thus impacting the stuff that the wider audiences see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    USM had a good run and left it's mark but as time went on it wasn't such an appealing entry point that it was able to continue as a viable alternative to the real thing.
    The real thing is so big and broad, it's also a nightmare for new readers. Where do you start, with half a dozen so-called "jumping on points" that don't really work as starting points. USM is perfectly straightforward where it starts, is a far smaller time commitment for people who want to test the waters, got the spirit of the franchise right, and has the touch of familiarity thanks to the movies. ASM may go on to the end of time, but USM is still the best first-time Spider-Man comic for new readers and I can't see that changing anytime soon.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    AUs are always at a disadvantage over whatever's considered the real deal. As far as advantages go, it's the one getting adapted into the movies, thus impacting the stuff that the wider audiences see.
    As I said, it provided an easy blueprint in translating the Spider-Man story to modern day. That's its main legacy.

    I think it's also why the book itself also peaked early. Updating the origin was the main service it provided.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    The real thing is so big and broad, it's also a nightmare for new readers.
    Not so much a nightmare that new readers aren't discovering ASM all the time. It is Marvel's top selling book, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Where do you start, with half a dozen so-called "jumping on points" that don't really work as starting points.
    You're imposing your own confusion onto the broader audience. New readers are able to find their own ways into the book, clearly. It's not that difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    USM is perfectly straightforward where it starts, is a far smaller time commitment for people who want to test the waters, got the spirit of the franchise right, and has the touch of familiarity thanks to the movies. ASM may go on to the end of time, but USM is still the best first-time Spider-Man comic for new readers and I can't see that changing anytime soon.
    It was a great first-time entry point for you. Is it objectively "the best" for all first time Spidey readers? No.

    New readers come to Spider-Man from a multitude of different angles. When you have a character that's been in publication this long, who has been in so many different titles, there's no one entry point that is the single most appealing one to all readers.

  11. #71
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    I read the issue and I feel we are getting much closer to closure on OMD. Peter telling Strange it's best not to summon a demon is his subconscious saying "fool me once...", he won't dare dip his feet in the same lake of fire twice in the event he be tempted.

  12. #72
    Mighty Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Unless Aunt May is actually going to die and stay dead I don’t get the point of this plot line. They killed her off in the video game so maybe Marvel is thinking about actually doing it in the comic?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Unless Aunt May is actually going to die and stay dead I don’t get the point of this plot line. They killed her off in the video game so maybe Marvel is thinking about actually doing it in the comic?
    I wish they had actually stuck to her real death in ASM#400. Tom Taylor is no JM DeMatteis, that’s for sure.

  14. #74
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Unless Aunt May is actually going to die and stay dead I don’t get the point of this plot line. They killed her off in the video game so maybe Marvel is thinking about actually doing it in the comic?
    It is in fact possible to survive cancer.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    It is in fact possible to survive cancer.
    May cuts a Roman Reigns promo: "I'm in remission y'all"

    Then she beats up a scotsman

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