Too Many Earth Lanterns...

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Ah, sarcasm and beating around the bush. Excellent.

Yes, saying a character is bad is a slam on the character. People who like stories he's been in and things he's done will refute that. That is triablism! That is you stating your preference of characters at the disparagement of another. It's not a statement of fact, it's a statement of opinion. Your opinion is not a fact, but you sure treat it like one. The number of fans a character has is not directly related to the quality of the character, regardless. Lots of well written, well composed characters from a critical, literary standpoint have never found a fanbase.

It's not that I even mind picking characters and disparaging others. We all have our likes and dislikes. I do it all the time. It's that you do it and then try to get on other peoples' cases for doing the same thing. You try to police how other people feel, police how they react to being told certain opinions are facts, then throw this obfuscation and sarcasm at people who call you out on it. You pretend to sit on this behavioral high ground when you're just as culpable.

Liking or disliking a character is an opinion, certainly. That Jessica Cruz has been more successful at garnering a fanbase than Simon Baz is a fact.

And I see you are back to warping what I have said beyond all recognition again since at no point did I say Simon Baz was a bad character. In fact, I said "That doesn't mean Baz is a bad character, just that he hasn't yet become someone who completely works." That would, of course, be my opinion and not cause for anyone who feels differently to start splitting themselves off into a tribe

Look, we could go at this over and over forever I am sure. But, what would be the point? I'm clearly not going to convince you that I genuinely trying find common ground with you and you obviously hate my guts

I'm just going to bow out from this thread now and let you continue arguing with whomever is still interested. Feel free to make any parting shots all you want.

Again, sorry we couldn't find see eye to eye on this.

So long.

[Frontier]

An entire sector of space is way too large for just two people to patrol.

Considering it used to be just one Lantern per sector I have to imagine it's not that difficult even if they have two now...but we hardly ever see GL's actually do anything else in 2814 aside from protect Earth, although there have probably been some stories where Hal had to go out and actually visit another planet in his sector.

[WebLurker]

But read what you just wrote. Why would somebody want their favorite character to lose the limelight to someone else!? Is this something that a fan should celebrate? Their favorite character being shunted off into limbo, as has happened to Kyle Rayner and Guy Gardner because "Too many Earth Lanterns..."

All one has to do is look at the fanbase to see DC has done something wrong. When you broaden your audience, the idea isn't generally to do so by pitting your fans against each other.

It happens. Characters other then the evergreen superstars wax and wane in their usage, sometimes coming back, other times not. It's the way things are.

My actual point, by the way, was not that we should be happy when are favorites go out of print or are replaced (so long as we don't go to the dark side over it), but that I think these kinds of arguments are framed as "it would be best for the franchise for XYZ" when reality is that it's just "I want this." Nothing wrong with wanting certain things, but I think it's a form of entitlement. (Besides, DC isn't pitting anyone against anyone. We are the ones who decide how we'll react when circumstances are in our favor and when they're not.)

Pretty much.

However you can't widen an audience if you do little to NOTHING with them.

What good is John Stewart-if when that parent (especially BLACK parent looking for a black lead book) goes looking and there is NOTHING? Let me correct that there is NOTHING to compete with Panther, Miles, Black, Noble, Duke, Prodigy, Luke Cage and everyone else out there. Because they are NOT going to bother with a Hal Jordan book.

Dc has done wrong because they have FAILED to showcase those POVs. Hal will always be showcased and ias CM PUnk says there is a difference between being a "millionaire" & a "billionaire."
Same boat here. And Dc looks like they want to stay the millionaire with Hal & Barry.

Fair point (although I would be careful assuming what characters will or will not appeal to such and such demographics and my understanding is that Barry Allen is basically classic Wally West renamed these days). To be honest, I tend to find the Hals and Barrys of the comic world to be some of the least interesting characters on the planet and I do agree that there are plenty of times that newer, diverse characters got shafted in order for the older ones to have the spotlight when both could've been accommodate (looking at you X-23, who lost the Wolverine codename as soon as Logan was brought back because of reasons).

[Vampire Savior]

It happens. Characters other then the evergreen superstars wax and wane in their usage, sometimes coming back, other times not. It's the way things are.

My actual point, by the way, was not that we should be happy when are favorites go out of print or are replaced (so long as we don't go to the dark side over it), but that I think these kinds of arguments are framed as "it would be best for the franchise for XYZ" when reality is that it's just "I want this." Nothing wrong with wanting certain things, but I think it's a form of entitlement.

"Perhaps the same could be said of all religions"...



Meaning the same thing can apply to what you're saying. You like what some may see as an extraneous Lantern, so you accuse other people of only acting out of self interest when they put forth arguments against an overabundance of Earth Lanterns, when you're doing the same thing, just with the opposite side of the coin.

It's probably best just to address people's arguments instead of trying to expose their motives.

[LordUltimus]

Just split them up among the other Lantern corps again. Guy works well as the Red Lantern's moderating force.

[Frontier]

Just split them up among the other Lantern corps again. Guy works well as the Red Lantern's moderating force.

Although considering we hardly ever see any of the other Lantern Corps. anymore, that might still stick them in limbo .

[skyvolt2000]

It happens. Characters other then the evergreen superstars wax and wane in their usage, sometimes coming back, other times not. It's the way things are.

My actual point, by the way, was not that we should be happy when are favorites go out of print or are replaced (so long as we don't go to the dark side over it), but that I think these kinds of arguments are framed as "it would be best for the franchise for XYZ" when reality is that it's just "I want this." Nothing wrong with wanting certain things, but I think it's a form of entitlement. (Besides, DC isn't pitting anyone against anyone. We are the ones who decide how we'll react when circumstances are in our favor and when they're not.)

DC has to share the blame when it comes to USAGE.

There is more to John Stewart than that blown up planet. Yet that seems to be the only story we see with him. This man was MARRIED. He had a FAMILY. Since New 52 all of that is MIA. That is the gripe John fans have.
To add fuel to the fire-when they choose NOT to support that mess-guess whose fans come around to LECTURE about being a real fan and ACCEPTING crap. Because if John fans don't buy that book-it MIGHT look bad for you know who.

But the John fans are doing what a REAL fan would do-if you don't like it don't support it. If that hurt the GL brand-why should John fans even care? Nobody is required to pay for CRAP.

Nobody is obligated to support crappy writing to a character that they like.

Before ANYONE says "what if that leads to limbo for John?" WHO CARES?? At least he won't be ruined like Wally West.


Fair point (although I would be careful assuming what characters will or will not appeal to such and such demographics and my understanding is that Barry Allen is basically classic Wally West renamed these days). To be honest, I tend to find the Hals and Barrys of the comic world to be some of the least interesting characters on the planet and I do agree that there are plenty of times that newer, diverse characters got shafted in order for the older ones to have the spotlight when both could've been accommodate (looking at you X-23, who lost the Wolverine codename as soon as Logan was brought back because of reasons).[/QUOTE]

To be fair X-23 was showcased as herself before she took over. She was in two mini of her own and NYX & a few other X-Men books.

Her taking the name Wolverine does what it ALWAYS does for guys-it gets them SHELF space.

See Falcon-no store took issue with ordering Sam Wilson Cap America. Yet the MOMENT he got to be himself with his own book-the very folks who yelled that suddenly vanished.

[j9ac9k]

FWIW, and I have no idea if it helped, but post "Emerald Twilight" I bought anything with Hal in it - Parallax, Spectre, flashback, what have you. (obviously, I was lucky enough where my budget could handle it) I am more on the side of, "DC will notice if a character sells, and if they don't sell, DC won't see it as a sign of poor writing and we should so something else with them, just that the character doesn't sell." Or it might not mean anything and that it's all about whether or not the right creative team has the right pitch for any given character. Until I hear otherwise, I will generally just try to support the character and and they stay around long enough, they'll get a good run out of it.

[WebLurker]

"Perhaps the same could be said of all religions"...

Case-by-case basis?

Meaning the same thing can apply to what you're saying. You like what some may see as an extraneous Lantern, so you accuse other people of only acting out of self interest when they put forth arguments against an overabundance of Earth Lanterns, when you're doing the same thing, just with the opposite side of the coin.

It's probably best just to address people's arguments instead of trying to expose their motives.

Huh, never thought of things in that context. Certainly worth considering.

Thing is, I wasn't trying to "expose motives," just more a comment on how I don't think there's really an objective answer to whether there are too many human Lantern characters. Granted, there are so many that it's hard to feature them all in equal time now, but, to be honest, I think it's purely a matter of opinion on number and usage. There aren't too many Lanterns any more then there would be too few if DC ever retired some of them. It's all about the stories being told and whether they work onto themselves. We may not like certain premises, but that doesn't make it wrong. Hence, from that perspective, I think the question of too many gets solely answered by all of us in what we want the stories to be, given that we all have different metrics of what constitutes as "good." (IMHO, there should be room for all of them, given that not everyone has a favorite franchise character or embraces all the same facets of it all.) Not sure if that makes any sense, but there it is.

FYI, after spending a decent amount of time probing fanbases online over the years, I have gotten pretty cynical about organized fandom and will willingly concede that that may be unduly affecting my perception on this.

DC has to share the blame when it comes to USAGE.

There is more to John Stewart than that blown up planet. Yet that seems to be the only story we see with him. This man was MARRIED. He had a FAMILY. Since New 52 all of that is MIA. That is the gripe John fans have.
To add fuel to the fire-when they choose NOT to support that mess-guess whose fans come around to LECTURE about being a real fan and ACCEPTING crap. Because if John fans don't buy that book-it MIGHT look bad for you know who.

But the John fans are doing what a REAL fan would do-if you don't like it don't support it. If that hurt the GL brand-why should John fans even care? Nobody is required to pay for CRAP.

Nobody is obligated to support crappy writing to a character that they like.

Before ANYONE says "what if that leads to limbo for John?" WHO CARES?? At least he won't be ruined like Wally West.

Not sure I can really relate completely, given that I don't really listen to other people very much in terms of what I should or should not read, or where the line of being willing to put with and when to to walk away when a specific franchise/character I follow is in a slump. I can get feeling like a change of authors or retool ruined something for you and you decide it time to call it quits with the new stuff (I'm a huge Spider-Man fan, but will not read anything post-"One More Day," since the new premise removed stuff that made it all worth reading to me). No problem with sharing ideas and discussing the situation in hand, but why give "true Scotsman" people the time of day if they're bothering you?

Mileage may vary?

To be fair X-23 was showcased as herself before she took over. She was in two mini of her own and NYX & a few other X-Men books.

Her taking the name Wolverine does what it ALWAYS does for guys-it gets them SHELF space.

And to be further fair, she was subsequently given a new ongoing that was essentially a retooled continuation of her Wolverine series under a new author (and it was a good one). That's apparently going to be canceled after next issue, but we don't know the full future and I think she's cemented herself with enough staying power for a lesser-known character that I think she'll be back sooner or later. IMHO, there was no need for her to be giving up the Wolverine mantle and it seemed like it was more for Logan's benefit (and branding purposes) then anything useful for the series itself.

See Falcon-no store took issue with ordering Sam Wilson Cap America. Yet the MOMENT he got to be himself with his own book-the very folks who yelled that suddenly vanished.

Don't follow Captain America stuff outside the MCU, so I know little of that. Is it possible that more people liked the idea of Sam Wilson being the new Cap for its own sake then to read about it? it's an easy trap to fall into; I was extremely offended about OMD for Spider-Man when I first heard about it and wanted it undone immediately despite the fact that I wasn't reading the series and had no intention of at the time, making it a pretty selfish wish given that I had no stake in it. (I have since started getting collections of older ASM stuff and I still want OMD undone as someone with a stake in it now, so progress?).

[Vampire Savior]

Case-by-case basis?



Huh, never thought of things in that context. Certainly worth considering.

Thing is, I wasn't trying to "expose motives," just more a comment on how I don't think there's really an objective answer to whether there are too many human Lantern characters. Granted, there are so many that it's hard to feature them all in equal time now, but, to be honest, I think it's purely a matter of opinion on number and usage. There aren't too many Lanterns any more then there would be too few if DC ever retired some of them. It's all about the stories being told and whether they work onto themselves. We may not like certain premises, but that doesn't make it wrong. Hence, from that perspective, I think the question of too many gets solely answered by all of us in what we want the stories to be, given that we all have different metrics of what constitutes as "good." (IMHO, there should be room for all of them, given that not everyone has a favorite franchise character or embraces all the same facets of it all.) Not sure if that makes any sense, but there it is.

FYI, after spending a decent amount of time probing fanbases online over the years, I have gotten pretty cynical about organized fandom and will willingly concede that that may be unduly affecting my perception on this.

You will get no argument from me regarding that there isn't an objective answer to the question. I don't think anyone said there was. The mythology started out with there only being one Green Lantern to a sector. but that rule has changed over time, and it's obviously being ignored altogether in the case of Sector 2814. It's up to each individual fan to decide whether the situation has gotten ridiculous or not. The only reasons I can see for someone supporting this arrangement is if they just don't care, or if they happen to like one of these later Green Lanterns. At a time, I cared (I don't really now, because I just don't have any real interest or stake in GL, despite discussing this), and I don't like any of the new Lanterns, so I don't support DC making GL's willy nilly. I don't see it doing any good to the characters that are already there, and I don't see the Green Lantern readership or audience substantially growing because of any of these characters, so I don't even see the point to them. Though, to be fair, some of the characters are very new (like Teen Lantern) and others haven't even been published yet (like the Asian boy and the Black woman). We will see if they increase the readership or fanbase in any substantial way.

I guess the only point to this I can see is that every type of person has a Green Lantern that represents them. I don't think that's a good idea, period, and I think it loses ALL its power when DC presents a white man as superior to them. Hal Jordan is the greatest Green Lantern according to DC Comics. So, again...I don't see the point.

[Midnight_v]

IMHO, there was no need for her to be giving up the Wolverine mantle and it seemed like it was more for Logan's benefit (and branding purposes) then anything useful for the series itself.

Well it IS a brand popularized by him. If she was as good and as popular as they proclaimed her to be then there was no reason for her to take up the "Wolverine" mantle at all.... other than her own benefit.

A huge number of his fans wanted it back too.

In most instances its kind a of ****-show, it has worked pretty good in dc though, because Dick Graysons team "made it" back in the 80's under wolfman... but making these derivatives under the premise of "We need the name to get the new property to work!"

When Wolvie, Deadpool, Cable, AND MORE did not. Watchmen wasn't popular because they took the Charlton characters identities, it wasn't even billed as an elseworlds. It became popular, and Rorschach, the comedian, and Dr.Manhattan
became popular beacause the characters were compelling and the story was Groundbreaking and Original *ymmv.

The whole thing reeks of stolen valor, I know, I know it NOT the same thing but the principle is. Take Jane Foster, or Jessica Cruz, or the X-23 clone and slap the title of an existing hero on them is a pretty big cop-out to actually doing the hard work
of making a worthwhile character.
Instead, the taking the Microscope off the "real" or "original" version of the character and saying here's "Thor"; "GL"; Wolvie and putting it on someone else SHOULD actually rouse people if they were emotionally invest in a character, and its likely to be for the negative. There's actually nothing wrong or unusual about it.

Meanwhile... if they were willing to do the work. There are a lot of characters that would really take off. My avatar for example.
"My" green lantern isn't really hal, but I have enough respect for the mythos to acknowledge that he IS the greatest of the green lanterns if for nothing else than the sheer amount of impact he's had
over the years already.
I can't just put on the ring and get all the accumulated respect and accomplishments of the original, in fact from a narrative perspective there should be a LOT more pushback about accepting new heroes except
the feel they really need a GL on the team.

That fact might piss some people off but... those people are going to be mad regardless because the most important thing for them ISN'T heroism and conflict, but something else. When the stories are the most important thing

[Killerbee911]

Although the earth sector is filled with multiple green Lanterns every one of them has a fanbase which is why it's sad that DC doesn't relaunch the entire GL line bat family style and see who sells and who doesn't I think it's a waste of money

OR

They can just launch one book "Green Lanterns" or "Green Lantern corps" call that main book of "the line"and everybody is happy. Change the focus of line from "a character" to "the concept", Clearly the concept works because they keep creating new Lanterns. Basically Green Lanterns is "the X-men" and person who takes over job is to make sure a book with multiple lanterns work. You can sell us that Hal Jordan is more popular than John Stewart, Kyle Rayner or Jessica Cruz. You can't sell us that Hal Jordan is more popular than John, Kyle, Simon, Jessica, Guy, Kilowog, Sodam Yat and other combined himself included. The dynamic of the franchise has changed even if Hal is "the most popular one" nobody is just a fan of one Lantern anymore ,everybody from what I have seen likes a couple of other Lanterns as well. Green Lanterns is "the franchise" ala X-men, Hal Jordan is "Wolverine". The goal is figure out if they have "Deadpool","Cable" or "X-23" in the mix.

Nobody should be upset with Hal Jordan focused book being around just like nobody in the X-men world is upset Wolverine having a solo. Every Green Lantern fan though should be upset at them valuing Hal Jordan over all other character in the franchise. I can't be convinced that Green Lanterns book focusing central on group of Green Lanterns as main theme and focus of the line can't work, They already did the ground work in getting fans use to partners as Green Lanterns which make multiple lanterns easier to handle, The next step is getting fans use to a Green Lantern precinct. It doesn't make sense to value Hal over everyone else just make it a thing to have group of sectors lanterns work together in a centralized place not on Oa. It is really that simple imo.

[Johnny]

The catch is that the X-Men were originally created as an ensemble cast, while Green Lantern was created as a solo-led franchise. That's why they felt the need to dump everything when they introduced Kyle because they thought it was an excess baggage that dragged the protagonist. A good number of non-Wolverine X-Men fans probably didn't like it all that much when he was the one who used to pop up everywhere during the 2000s. There was a time when Logan was almost getting the type of push that Iron Man does now. And for all intents and purposes, Wolverine was still originally meant to be a team-up character, while Hal Jordan was meant to be a solo operator from the start. That's where the notion is coming from that this is "his" franchise since the GLC mythos was originally created to revolve around him. And the more characters they kept bringing in, the more difficult they made it for themselves to balance them out, to the point where they have a whole bunch of characters around now where half of them serve no real purpose because they can't find them any. It's sad.

[Killerbee911]

The catch is that the X-Men were originally created as an ensemble cast, while Green Lantern was created as a solo-led franchise. That's why they felt the need to dump everything when they introduced Kyle because they thought it was an excess baggage that dragged the protagonist. A good number of non-Wolverine X-Men fans probably didn't like it all that much when he was the one who used to pop up everywhere during the 2000s. There was a time when Logan was almost getting the type of push that Iron Man does now. And for all intents and purposes, Wolverine was still originally meant to be a team-up character, while Hal Jordan was meant to be a solo operator from the start. That's where the notion is coming from that this is "his" franchise since the GLC mythos was originally created to revolve around him. And the more characters they kept bringing in, the more difficult they made it for themselves to balance them out, to the point where they have a whole bunch of characters around now where half of them serve no real purpose because they can't find them any. It's sad.

Things change. So what if it was created as a "solo thing",It has clear evolved past that. The franchise is evolving the biggest difficulty is they are trying to stick to original formula and it is stupid. Because one of the best parts of the franchise is creating new lanterns beyond Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz. They have a young lantern in YJ, A new lantern in Far sector and another Young asian Lantern in spin off alt reality. DC clearly understands that people like seeing new lanterns but don't seem to understand you need a place to showcase them and have them grow into something more because Green Lantern is "solo led franchise" in some stupid editor's head.Also I will state the obvious Hal isn't Wolverine, Batman, Spiderman. He isn't overwhelming popular figure that drives sales regardless. The smart bet is "the field' not a character

I will repeat again

even if Hal is "the most popular one" nobody is just a fan of one Lantern anymore

Everybody who is a fan of Hal Jordan has a number 2 and 3 Green Lantern they would also like to get more attention. But okay let's keep pretending it is SOLO franchise.

[Johnny]

Things change. So what if it was created as a "solo thing",It has clear evolved past that. The franchise is evolving the biggest difficulty is they are trying to stick to original formula and it is stupid. Because one of the best parts of the franchise is creating new lanterns beyond Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz. They have a young lantern in YJ, A new lantern in Far sector and another Young asian Lantern in spin off alt reality. DC clearly understands that people like seeing new lanterns but don't seem to understand you need a place to showcase them and have them grow into something more because Green Lantern is "solo led franchise" in some stupid editor's head.Also I will state the obvious Hal isn't Wolverine, Batman, Spiderman. He isn't overwhelming popular figure that drives sales regardless. The smart bet is "the field' not a character

I will repeat again



Everybody who is a fan of Hal Jordan has a number 2 and 3 Green Lantern they would also like to get more attention. But okay let's keep pretending it is SOLO franchise.

There is nothing to pretend about, I mentioned how GL was originally conceived to point out that the X-Men comparison doesn't really hold up. It's not a popularity contest between Hal and Wolverine, it's about how a franchise like Green Lantern has been structured in a completely different fashion than X-Men. That's why X-Men is capable of sustaining a bunch of spin-off titles while Green Lantern is not. And as long as it's not, they are going to keep relying on the old formula of "the main Lantern" with the solo book and the "supporting Lanterns" who may or may not have a team book, no matter who is playing what role.