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  1. #91
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Ah, the internet: last bastion of maturity.
    Your face is maturity ;p

  2. #92
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    I'm so proud of all of you!

    *sniffles*
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  3. #93
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    I'm so proud of all of you!

    *sniffles*
    Your face is so proud of all of you ;p

  4. #94
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    And now a sidebar I am suddenly reminded of:

    So ten million years ago when dinosaurs roamed the Earth and I was still in high school, there was this group of guys whose intellect was um.. dubious. They felt that the greatest rejoinders were either "in bed" or "your mother". Occasionally they would vary this up with, "with mother" instead of "your mother", and if you think they did so out of the needs of grammar, you are expecting a lot more of some guys who felt the greatest rejoinders in the world were "in bed" or "your mother". Rarely were either applied in any way that I could have called remotely coherent.

    At one point this reached a sort of baffling insult singularity where they said "Your mother is mother in bed with mother".

    Truly this thread has caused me to revisit a golden age.

  5. #95
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    ...sounds appallingly familiar. O_o
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  6. #96
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    "I'm not semantics, you're semantics!" is not an argument. You started with:



    But now you're at "it's simply pushing themselves to the max." To remind you as you're getting pretty close to the "I was then never trying to argue with anything, I replied to your initial post for absolutely no reason relevant to it" place, your entire thing here started with replying to my noting at least for Barry's high end crazy speed thing, at least it screwed him up to do it and hold onto in comparison to Cain Superman's, as far as making look like going that fast was a whole maxed out thing, instead of something casual. If you weren't trying to refute that, it's certainly interesting that you'd chime in with "no, that was normal for them." There's nothing particularly normal about operating at the fastest speed you can while performing various complex operations as you hold onto it and holding onto it for so long you start physically screwing yourself up. He went to a place considerably beyond "winded." Your "sprinting" analogy really only works if at the same time someone is sprinting, they're also doing advanced math calculations, holding strategy meetings, speeding other people up... it's a bad analogy, is maybe what I'm getting at there.

    Either it was normal for them or they were pushing themselves to max capacity and wrecking themselves for it, which do you prefer at this point to keep holding onto trying to find something to disagree with?

    It was certainly so normal for them that by "winded" I imagine you meant Barry was staggering around by the end, Iris could feel him burning up when they touched (since we're talking about what people said) and he ended up in the Star labs check up on Barry to make sure he hasn't screwed himself up care bed at the end.



    I noted that going that fast well beyond himself was at least shown to ultimately be a thing that screwed Barry up by contrast. You replied to note that such took a while and in fact was "normal" for him. From there you've been taking it to a lot of interesting places, definitely.



    I just referred you to an episode where Barry himself refers to it as a special thing he had to train himself for months to be able to operate in, in those words.

    At this point your argument, all over the place as it is, looks to be twofold.

    You started with "no, that's normal and he could do it for a while." then you added "I totally meant by normal he was hellaciously pushing himself." so I guess we're at least moving past that.

    We're also on "it's also not some special thing", despite Barry himself noting that to be capable of it, as though it is some special thing, required months of training himself and requiring holding on to a specific mindset to be capable of.



    Barry: "Everything looks normal to me when I'm in Flashtime, but it took me months to learn how to operate like that."

    If it's not special, why would they bother to refer to it as something he had to take months to learn? That it takes special effort beyond running? Again, actual words.
    For that last bit: he stated that because using his speed has ALWAYS been a learning process. He spent months training to use his speed without crashing into walls and stuff - really early example of "Flashtime". He spent months trying to get faster and faster and faster. He spent months learning all kinds of things which are really just using his speed, or learning to use his speed better.

    While we are on questions - since you didn't answer mine above, I'll use your favorite non-tiger-rock line: this is not a rhetorical question.

    Again I ask you, what difference does it make IN THE SLIGHTEST? Do you or do you not agree that the bomb episode showed speed that is VASTLY higher-end than anything else the show has delivered before or after? That was my original and continuing point. We diverged onto this pointless and stupid argument about Flashtime nonsense; I'm un-diverging. Feel free to hold your opinion, I'm sure I'm not going to change your mind.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
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  7. #97

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    You are pushing for a SMvFL declaration perhaps?

    Pen (Im just assuming - feel free to correct) is arguing that Flashtime is it's own separate ability/thing thus suggesting you can not take his overall career into account with it, but must instead base it on it's own showings.

    Like how super saiyan feats are not compared to base Goku feats. Its a different activated thing with its OWN feats. Or Binary compared to regular Carol Danvers.

    I... /think/ thats Pen's point.
    Last edited by The Arbiter; 04-16-2019 at 01:51 PM.
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  8. #98
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    For that last bit: he stated that because using his speed has ALWAYS been a learning process. He spent months training to use his speed without crashing into walls and stuff - really early example of "Flashtime". He spent months trying to get faster and faster and faster. He spent months learning all kinds of things which are really just using his speed, or learning to use his speed better.

    While we are on questions - since you didn't answer mine above, I'll use your favorite non-tiger-rock line: this is not a rhetorical question.

    Again I ask you, what difference does it make IN THE SLIGHTEST? Do you or do you not agree that the bomb episode showed speed that is VASTLY higher-end than anything else the show has delivered before or after? That was my original and continuing point. We diverged onto this pointless and stupid argument about Flashtime nonsense; I'm un-diverging. Feel free to hold your opinion, I'm sure I'm not going to change your mind.
    Why would I have otherwise noted on it "at least it showed operating at such screwing him up" if I was not talking about that performance being vastly higher end than what he's otherwise done but that "at least it showed operating at such screwing him up", in contrast to the Cain vastly higher end than what he's otherwise done? As the initial thing I posted on all of this.

    For that last bit: he stated that because using his speed has ALWAYS been a learning process. He spent months training to use his speed without crashing into walls and stuff - really early example of "Flashtime". He spent months trying to get faster and faster and faster. He spent months learning all kinds of things which are really just using his speed, or learning to use his speed better.
    I'm quoting him directly from the show. The thing you are saying is not the thing he said.

    While we are on questions - since you didn't answer mine above, I'll use your favorite non-tiger-rock line: this is not a rhetorical question.
    Because you'd think posting to say "at least Barry's performance screwed him up" would be a note for what it was. Your "question" is wanting me to say something I already said, unless, for a guy complaining about random tangents, you figured it was just some kind of post from a vacuum and wanted to respond to it in that sense. And it certainly seemed comprehensible enough at the time for you to try to refute the point about it both being some performance well beyond his usual, and being depicted that way. You seem at the heart of things to keep wanting to say "despite how high end a performance the incident was compared to what Barry has otherwise done, the show was treating it as totally normal, it was only tiring him because of my sprinting analogy.". The show that at the end of the ep had Caitlin noting to him he had taxed his system to the point that he needed to not use his superpowers for a bit. That's somewhere beyond "he got tired like he otherwise gets tired."

    Your "question" requires not reading anything I'm posting where I'm saying things like:


    my noting at least for Barry's high end crazy speed thing, at least it screwed him up to do it and hold onto in comparison to Cain Superman's, as far as making look like going that fast was a whole maxed out thing, instead of something casual.
    So, here's another thing I like saying if you're looking to build some kind of collection, if I bolded it for emphasis, would that help?

    But here:

    Again I ask you, what difference does it make IN THE SLIGHTEST?
    To repeat, from me:


    my noting at least for Barry's high end crazy speed thing, at least it screwed him up to do it and hold onto in comparison to Cain Superman's, as far as making look like going that fast was a whole maxed out thing, instead of something casual.
    From you:

    Do you or do you not agree that the bomb episode showed speed that is VASTLY higher-end than anything else the show has delivered before or after?
    To repeat, from me:


    my noting at least for Barry's high end crazy speed thing, at least it screwed him up to do it and hold onto in comparison to Cain Superman's, as far as making look like going that fast was a whole maxed out thing, instead of something casual.
    To say "you're never answering me!" requires you to basically be deciding, and again, since we're doing "things l like saying", that you're reading a completely different set of posts some other Pendaran from an alternate reality made. I have repeatedly said to this point that I consider the showing to be considerably high end for Barry, similar to the Cain thing, which I've otherwise referred to in thread as better than anything else he's ever done. My first reference in this thread is comparing is to Cain's by way of noting "at least it messed him up". That I've gone on from there to say it more specifically, but you deciding you've somehow never been replied to on this, is kind of your own problem.

    If the effort is shown as actually messing Barry up, and involving a general state of affairs he has to put particular effort into being capable of besides, for some reason I feel like that matters when, say, talking about comparative showings for characters, the thing we do on this board. As though that was the very first thing I said on this topic.

    But more specifically:

    That was my original and continuing point.
    You said this, as your reply to me:

    It's also pretty clearly stated in the scene that that is the normal state for the speedsters when they are invoking their speed
    Again, unless this was completely intended as a non sequitur reply to me, no, that's your reply to what I said.

    You have various posts going on from there to dismiss the level of impact that was shown on Barry as "he gets tired all the time from other performances"

    To say that your only point was "it's really high end" and not "and also I'm trying to dismiss everything that showed it was stand out effort and messing him up" is certainly an interesting take on your own ongoing argument. You seem to want to try to make this about "you're not admitting it was high end!" when I've said that repeatedly that it was, to try and I guess get away from wanting to claim at the same time "and the show didn't depict it being remarkable in any way." Which, is ultimately a good choice, considering that it did.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 04-16-2019 at 09:29 PM.

  9. #99
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    While I'm there, in that ep, as far as some idea that the show wasn't treating them at that as pushing themselves to some place well beyond in speed, as far as "Barry normally perceives everyone as statues as just a thing and there's no difference or any kind of gradation when he's using his speed as far as what that situation implied" there is a part where Barry and Jesse note that they are slowing down as far as the process of things starting to advance in terms of "everything else speeding up". This is still fast enough for everyone to be complete statues to them, but slowing enough for the nuke explosion to be helped by that. It's as though even in "normal Flashtime" there are degrees, and the show was demonstrating they'd functionally hit maximum to be able to react in the way that they initially were.

    So to try and I guess gather this all in a helpful collected package.

    The Cain feat that even from other stuff brought up, is both wildly beyond his usual, and portrayed as casually performed, gets mentioned, there are disputes and questions around it. People make some notes about the Barry Flashtime Nuke incident. I noted that compared to the Cain performance, at least it screwed him up to do, providing a treatment thereby that this was acknowledged as exceptional height for him, which if you want to compare the two showings, at least gives it a better air of credibility in terms of Barry's wildly high end showing. Some really questionable back and forth ensues. The idea underlying all of this is a performance that was treated as atypically beyond, even by the show itself. You have up Barry getting wrecked compared to "getting tired". You have gradations demonstrated even in "so fast people are statues" as far as speeds they operate at that they ultimately start slowing down from by their own note, but people? Still statues. You have Barry later referring to Flashtime as a whole thing he had to train for months to do, that you can fall out of even while otherwise standing still if not doing it right, as far as trying to say "it's the same thing as not running into a wall" in terms of what he himself describes as an explicit level of focus needed to maintain it. The idea that the show wasn't itself treating this whole thing as a stand out incident for the Flash that is well beyond stuff he can normally operate at/maintain/etc., does not track.

    So.. what is it you want to argue by contrast at this point? That the Cain and Barry showings were treated the same way? No, they weren't. You want to argue your sprinter analogy Barry was just shown doing a "200 meter sprint" longer as far as wanting to imply "it was not intended to be seen as any different from his normal 'Flashtime'"? Nope, the show demonstrated that you can still have gradations of speed, even while everything is otherwise seemingly frozen around you as far as people, unless you feel that when they noted "we're slowing down", they were full of it. That Flashtime itself isn't some special thing that requires speedsters to be putting in more effort? Hey, you can, but then again you've said you don't want to go further from that, and also I don't personally particularly find that the show supports it.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 04-16-2019 at 10:28 PM.

  10. #100
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    I suppose I'll note to be fair, if season 5 did give him more showings like that anyway, which would threaten this entire conversation with being moot from the ground up, I wouldn't know. I tapped right out of the Flash at that point, it got too stupid.

    edit: *googles for five minutes*

    Bahahahaha, him and Supergirl were running and flying so fast around the world as a combined effort it was slowing down the Earth's rotation and time with it? The Christ Hell what? Well at least that was going to kill him to do if he had been allowed to complete it.

    I suppose that does something of a number on "never did anything even nearly as good or better since".

    edit edit: *snerk* the show claims they were only going mach 7 when they did that apparently? Considering the number of times they circle the planet that I can see even just when the scene cuts to showing the globe as a whole, let alone however many times they are when the show cuts away to show other things happening, that's.. interesting.

    I suppose by that insanity, if as its reverse, Barry has done other stuff on par with the nuke feat anyway considering that he's "only had picoseconds" to jump into a portal while starting considerably away from it and doing other stuff along the way. It's just, you know, we see those portals on numerous ocassions, picoseconds are not a word that should be used in connection with them for how fast they close. It's like the bizarro version of the Earth slowing thing, a thing described as faster than it has any right to be for looking right at it, compared to a thing described as slower than is remotely possible for looking right at it.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 04-16-2019 at 11:18 PM.

  11. #101
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    I mean, it's almost like they don't actually consider the science of anything when they write this stuff.

    Way back in season 1, Barry had to train and train and train to get over mach 1, yet somehow could move so quickly that it effectively froze time while he was ruminating to himself in Jitters about wanting to tell Iris he's the Flash blah blah blah zzzzzzzzz.

    Oh damn, sorry, just thinking about Barry and Iris is narcolezzzzzzzzz.

    Won't do it again.

    Against Savitar, they spent an entire season training Wally to be fast enough to save Iris - but the speed they were training up to was barely mach 1 iirc. Like, "cover 50m in 0.15 seconds" - which is basically EXACTLY mach 1 at sea level.

    Barry takes 15 seconds to run across town, complete with Iris and Co. yelling "hurry Barry" into his earpiece, then skids to a stop in front of goon-of-the-week, breathless, but runs to China and back in 2 seconds or whatever, arriving in his cell fresh as a daisy.

    Basically, the show is HORRIBLE for speedster PIS. And the show is crap for consistent feats, which is fine, as they are not going for that, no, they are trying to tell a hokey love storzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
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  12. #102
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Ultimately here is the thing. Particularly given, well, the Earth's rotational thing, you can't even say the nuke feat exists in isolation. Barry has a wild high end that has a "will screw him up" tag placed on it. Is the show really stupid and its level of PIS breathtaking even for genre material? Sure.

    But compared to, for instance, Cain Superman, when talking about these characters in comparison to each other, he at least it turns out has done his most nonsensical stuff more than once, and at least compared to Cain, it's shown that he does so at a considerable price to himself.

    It provides the thinnest possible benchmark for looking at when Barry does something especially crazy, but a benchmark all the same. "Did it eff him up/Was it going to kill him? Well, those others times did, so if it didn't, probably ignore."
    Last edited by Pendaran; 04-17-2019 at 09:08 AM.

  13. #103
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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    Guy And Chou's RPG Site
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  14. #104
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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    Guy And Chou's RPG Site
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  15. #105
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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