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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    I feel that the feat being discussed is setting the upper limit for his speed. I feel the rest of the series well establishes his superspeed to the extent that any time he's not instantly solving his problems with superspeed of the "trivially wallpaper an entire house" level, there's obvious PIS going on. I think this is a problem for SvsFL arguments against the feat being discussed, because the vast majority of problems that could be solved by superspeed in the series could be solved by the better established level.
    If nothing else he ever did in a multi year series where he was basically in every episode ever came close to that, even slightly, then saying that since the things that aren't even remotely close didn't require much from him, the thing wildly beyond them totally works just fine, does not reconcile. It attempts to handwave the "nothing ever came close ever" detail that you seem to both want to acknowledge, then ignore at the same time, somehow.

  2. #62
    Incredible Member Morning's Avatar
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    Doesn't CW "flashtime" puts Barry above Cain and QS here?

    I mean a nuke went off a few feet from his team and he just spends the whole rest of the episode running back and forth across the city, lending speed to people to have brainstorming conversations with them, repeatedly trying and failing to stop the expanding explosion, traveling to an alternate Earth for help, then coming back and successfully stopping the explosion in its tracks all before it actually spreads far enough to do any real damage.

  3. #63
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    If nothing else he ever did in a multi year series where he was basically in every episode ever came close to that, even slightly, then saying that since the things that aren't even remotely close didn't require much from him, the thing wildly beyond them totally works just fine, does not reconcile. It attempts to handwave the "nothing ever came close ever" detail that you seem to both want to acknowledge, then ignore at the same time, somehow.
    I don't really agree with how you're representing what I said, but I don't especially want to argue the point either, and I'd already thrown an edit into one of my earlier posts after rechecking the SvsFL rule and finding the wording a bit different from what I recalled, so I'll just drop it here because this version of Superman doesn't really do any blitzing anyway, which is what the thread is about.

    That and the whole discussion could be torpedoed in an instant by anyone who actually felt like going back and mining Lois and Clark for feats. Which to be clear is not me saying I think I'd be vindicated.
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  4. #64
    Smiles but not on command Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    Well just being a rare display wouldn't make it SvsFL unless he had an established limitation in that area. Anyway, finding good clips from Lois and Clark is pretty hard to do, but speaking from my memory of the show, he definitely used a pretty high level superspeed a fair amount in ways that required him to have the reflexes to keep up with what he was doing because it was frequently for trivial things like wallpapering a house. Not FTL, but absolutely backing up that he's a solid speedster beyond simply travel speed, and these things he does are always incredibly trivial for him, frequently played as this just being how Clark organizes his life. So overall, while I can't think of any other feats in the range of the one being discussed, the series definitely lends itself more to Clark having as much speed as he needs to have than it does to any suggestion of a limit below zipping around the globe for takeout.

    As for FTL, I dunno that the feat being discussed requires THAT, but it'd have to be in like, the high tenths of C at least.

    Edit: Rather, what I'm saying above is that the frequency of Clark just using super speed to do day-to-day stuff is enough that any time he's not using it to solve the actual problems of an episode comes off as pretty standard speedster PIS.
    I also remember one where he played a game of baseball against himself. He was the batter, the pitcher and, apparently, all of the fielders.

    I *think* I see your point. If he's really that fast in these minor subplots, then every single situation of real importance where he doesn't use that kind of speed becomes P.I.S. But that is pretty standard for speedsters.
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  5. #65
    Smiles but not on command Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning View Post
    Doesn't CW "flashtime" puts Barry above Cain and QS here?

    I mean a nuke went off a few feet from his team and he just spends the whole rest of the episode running back and forth across the city, lending speed to people to have brainstorming conversations with them, repeatedly trying and failing to stop the expanding explosion, traveling to an alternate Earth for help, then coming back and successfully stopping the explosion in its tracks all before it actually spreads far enough to do any real damage.
    I can't remember how much he was accelerated but he stayed in that state for quite some time from his point of view. But I guess that's what this debate has turned into. I mean, it seems a massive outlier. Oh, granted, he forgets he has super speed including super speed instinctive reactions constantly. But the question is whether that feat is far beyond even his consistent high-end which I'm fairly sure it is.
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  6. #66
    Watashi ga Kita! The Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Yeah, this is legit.

    CW Flash is just....weird. He gets hit by things and people that just shouldn’t.

    He’s basically living in a sea of PIS.
    That's true of most speedsters. Hell, its the ONLY reason Batman ever manages to not end up as a smear in the first femtosecond of any fight he has against Superman. And that's not mentioning the fact Supes could just pull a Majora's Mask and ram the moon into Batman (and Gotham).
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  7. #67
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dog View Post
    That's true of most speedsters. Hell, its the ONLY reason Batman ever manages to not end up as a smear in the first femtosecond of any fight he has against Superman. And that's not mentioning the fact Supes could just pull a Majora's Mask and ram the moon into Batman (and Gotham).
    PIS/CIS and the fact that Superman isn't you know a psycho mass murderer but idk...

    Super speed doesn't change his morals and mean he'd be willing to snap and kill Batman just because he can. Anyway he has more reasons to kill an actual villain like Lex Luthor than a fellow hero, but he hasn't and never kill Lex either.

  9. #69
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    So the objects just appear in his hand as the camera is fixed on him? Although technically even that is not explicit proof of FTL reflexes that would at least make a strong case for the writers wanting to show absurd speed

    Anything else, while fast, does not really hint at FTL reflexes fast.

    I suppose the better question would be, anything else in the show indicate such speed or is it one off SMvFL?
    Yes, that's exactly what happens.

    It also flips away to one of the vendors in between the scene to show that he did, in fact, leave money on the counter.

    And of COURSE it's FTL. Metropolis to Beijing and back would take like 4 frames at C. That's blasting straight through walls, stealing the shit on the fly, killing some pedestrians, etc. But he also takes the time to wrap the stuff, pay for the stuff, and not destroy anyone or anything on the way, and does it in 1 frame. FTL. Period. Not Wally West level, as I already stated, but it's faster than C.
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  10. #70
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I can't remember how much he was accelerated but he stayed in that state for quite some time from his point of view. But I guess that's what this debate has turned into. I mean, it seems a massive outlier. Oh, granted, he forgets he has super speed including super speed instinctive reactions constantly. But the question is whether that feat is far beyond even his consistent high-end which I'm fairly sure it is.
    It's way, way, way, way beyond anything else he does. And this is a guy who constantly gets punched straight out of superspeed blitzes by regular people. Or who seems too frightened of failure to even try blitzes often.

    But no, it still wouldn't put him above Cain's speed. Even in that high-end use of Flashtime, the explosion was expanding. Cain shows such speed that it wouldn't.
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  11. #71
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    If nothing else he ever did in a multi year series where he was basically in every episode ever came close to that, even slightly, then saying that since the things that aren't even remotely close didn't require much from him, the thing wildly beyond them totally works just fine, does not reconcile. It attempts to handwave the "nothing ever came close ever" detail that you seem to both want to acknowledge, then ignore at the same time, somehow.
    Eh, he does crazy fast superspeed stuff just fine pretty frequently. Including things like saving a jet airliner on the other side of the world so quickly that nobody in the same room notices him leave to do it and come back from doing it. And he does all of it totally casually. The feat I mentioned is pretty high end, but it's casual, just like every other speed or strength feat he engages in.

    He definitely doesn't always use his speed, but then, the show wasn't really about showing off super powers, and didn't really have much of an effects budget.
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  12. #72
    Incredible Member Morning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    It's way, way, way, way beyond anything else he does. And this is a guy who constantly gets punched straight out of superspeed blitzes by regular people. Or who seems too frightened of failure to even try blitzes often.
    PIS is the star of that show, as others have suggested. As to whether its an outlier, I would think that also depends on what he does after, as well as before. I know that the "flashtime" application of his speed was invoked again in a later episode, wherein he tries to train non-speedsters to operate in it with borrowed speed. I haven't really watched since, though, so maybe someone else knows if he's added more feats to back it up?

    But no, it still wouldn't put him above Cain's speed. Even in that high-end use of Flashtime, the explosion was expanding. Cain shows such speed that it wouldn't.
    Eh... I don't see it that way. I mean, when we say the explosion was expanding, we're talking about the light (flash, radiation, whatever) of the explosion, not the blast. And it only expands a few meters in like 30 minutes of air time (seemingly much longer in real time). That's hundred millionth of a second territory in which he gets to run around chatting, planning, trying, failing, and repeat. So while it may be an outlier, it's such a massively FTL one that it should trump everything.
    Last edited by Morning; 04-14-2019 at 03:12 PM.

  13. #73
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Yeah, I’m with Morning on this one. The speed of the blast energy and blast-wave of force was virtually glacial.

    I mean it was definitely above anything else he’s done, but Flashtime is explicitly a thing, and that feat is faster than Cain’s stuff.

  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Flashtime at least has a "screws the Flash up for holding onto for too long."

  15. #75
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Flashtime at least has a "screws the Flash up for holding onto for too long."
    The problem, of course, is that it doesn't screw him up all that much all that quickly, and so it would be a brilliant way to take care of 99.9999% of the shows problems.

    It's also pretty clearly stated in the scene that that is the normal state for the speedsters when they are invoking their speed, but that makes things like "it takes Barry 15 seconds to get across town" all the more stupid, and THAT is the "usual" level of the show.

    The total lack of chemistry between Iris and Barry, obviously, can't be fixed by anything.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;"
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