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  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Everything but the slowest level of Barry's superspeed would be a brilliant way to take care of 99.9999% of the show's problems, being real.

    It's also pretty clearly stated in the scene that that is the normal state for the speedsters when they are invoking their speed
    Well no, the point of Flashtime is that it isn't, it's an extra special thing or it wouldn't have an eventual deleterious effect.

  2. #77

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    You made that word up. Admit it.
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

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  3. #78
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Everything but the slowest level of Barry's superspeed would be a brilliant way to take care of 99.9999% of the show's problems, being real.
    Still couldn't take care of the chemistry issue. Of course, a crossover between TOAA and the Presence couldn't do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Well no, the point of Flashtime is that it isn't, it's an extra special thing or it wouldn't have an eventual deleterious effect.
    Actually, no, he explains to Cisco and to Iris that Flashtime is what he calls the world when he's using his speed - it's not a special mode. That particular scene wore them all out eventually because it was longer than they usually exert themselves at max effort continuously. Jay says so: he's too old to keep up with Barry for that long, and his daughter drops out as well, also not being capable of maintaining max effort for as long as Barry. It's definitely not explained as some kind of special mode beyond their usual stuff.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;"
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  4. #79
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    You made that word up. Admit it.
    All words are made up.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;"
    - Nik Hasta

    "Get off my lawn!

    ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops."

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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Still couldn't take care of the chemistry issue. Of course, a crossover between TOAA and the Presence couldn't do that.



    Actually, no, he explains to Cisco and to Iris that Flashtime is what he calls the world when he's using his speed - it's not a special mode. That particular scene wore them all out eventually because it was longer than they usually exert themselves at max effort continuously. Jay says so: he's too old to keep up with Barry for that long, and his daughter drops out as well, also not being capable of maintaining max effort for as long as Barry. It's definitely not explained as some kind of special mode beyond their usual stuff.
    I guess it's akin to someone running at top speed. You can't do it for very long. It also depends on the fitness and experience of the person; as Barry has been doing it for a long time he lasts the longest.

  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Still couldn't take care of the chemistry issue. Of course, a crossover between TOAA and the Presence couldn't do that.



    Actually, no, he explains to Cisco and to Iris that Flashtime is what he calls the world when he's using his speed - it's not a special mode. That particular scene wore them all out eventually because it was longer than they usually exert themselves at max effort continuously. Jay says so: he's too old to keep up with Barry for that long, and his daughter drops out as well, also not being capable of maintaining max effort for as long as Barry. It's definitely not explained as some kind of special mode beyond their usual stuff.
    When operating at that level is something he can only do for a limited time and he eventually physically fails to do so while we see it start to drain him, it starts to get into semantics to suggest that it's not a capacity being outlined as beyond his usual.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 04-15-2019 at 06:39 PM.

  7. #82
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    When operating at that level is something he can only do for a limited time and he eventually physically fails to do so while we see it start to drain him, it starts to get into semantics to suggest that it's not a capacity being outlined as beyond his usual.
    He gets tired all the time in the show - just running around the town a couple of dozen times or making a tornado or whatever can leave him winded. It's not like he's "me have unlimited stamina EXCEPT when me runny Flashtime fast" or anything.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;"
    - Nik Hasta

    "Get off my lawn!

    ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops."

    - Sharpandpointies

    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics."
    -Captain Morgan

  8. #83
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    He gets tired all the time in the show - just running around the town a couple of dozen times or making a tornado or whatever can leave him winded. It's not like he's "me have unlimited stamina EXCEPT when me runny Flashtime fast" or anything.
    Not in the way it was depicted as far as the effects it had on him and other speedsters.

  9. #84
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Not in the way it was depicted as far as the effects it had on him and other speedsters.
    But once again, that was just him pushing himself all out for longer than he usually does. I can jog 200 meters and barely breathe heavy. If I sprint 200m all out, I'm winded. If I run back to back to back 200m sprints I'm going to be damn near unconscious with fatigue, and I'll be running SIGNIFICANTLY slower by the end. Same would be true for you or anyone else, and you or anyone else are very likely to have different thresholds for each state of exhaustion - just like Barry & Co. in the episode in question.

    I mean, we have Barry himself telling Iris and Cisco that Flashtime is just what it's always like when speedsters gotta speed, in the same episode. And we have different speedsters being capable of maintaining maximum effort for different amounts of time. So it's odd to imagine that it's some kind of different thing than they usually do, when it's certainly neither presented as such nor requires such a situation to "work" in the context of what we see.

    It is, OTOH, vastly stupidly ridiculously faster than anything else we ever see Barry or any of the other speedsters do.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;"
    - Nik Hasta

    "Get off my lawn!

    ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops."

    - Sharpandpointies

    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics."
    -Captain Morgan

  10. #85
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    But once again, that was just him pushing himself all out for longer than he usually does. I can jog 200 meters and barely breathe heavy. If I sprint 200m all out, I'm winded. If I run back to back to back 200m sprints I'm going to be damn near unconscious with fatigue, and I'll be running SIGNIFICANTLY slower by the end. Same would be true for you or anyone else, and you or anyone else are very likely to have different thresholds for each state of exhaustion - just like Barry & Co. in the episode in question.

    I mean, we have Barry himself telling Iris and Cisco that Flashtime is just what it's always like when speedsters gotta speed, in the same episode. And we have different speedsters being capable of maintaining maximum effort for different amounts of time. So it's odd to imagine that it's some kind of different thing than they usually do, when it's certainly neither presented as such nor requires such a situation to "work" in the context of what we see.

    It is, OTOH, vastly stupidly ridiculously faster than anything else we ever see Barry or any of the other speedsters do.
    At this point I'm going to have to ask for some kind of clip saying this (are you talking about when Barry says that "more or less" to Cisco?), because in the DeVoe episode he dips into it again with Cisco and Caitlin with it refers to Flashtime as a thing Barry had to train himself for months to be able to operate in. Barry himself when training Cisco and Caitlin to operate in it talks about it as a state that he maintains that requires focus well beyond "going fast", that it's a thing beyond "running with your legs", he says that if all you focus on is that, you fall out of it, that it requires a state of calm and the like.

    And again, this continues to feel like an argument based in semantics. If Barry and the other Flashes pushing themselves to operate at a level that is ultimately wearing them down to maintain until a point where it becomes impossible to keep maintaining, then by definition they're pushing themselves beyond their usual capacity. You waste a lot of space saying that you both somehow agree with this concept, but also that's somehow totally not what it means.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 04-16-2019 at 07:18 AM.

  11. #86
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    At this point I'm going to have to ask for some kind of clip saying this (are you talking about when Barry says that "more or less" to Cisco?), because in the DeVoe episode he dips into it again with Cisco and Caitlin with it refers to Flashtime as a thing Barry had to train himself for months to be able to operate in. Barry himself when training Cisco and Caitlin to operate in it talks about it as a state that he maintains that requires focus well beyond "going fast", that it's a thing beyond "running with your legs", he says that if all you focus on is that, you fall out of it, that it requires a state of calm and the like.

    And again, this continues to feel like an argument based in semantics. If Barry and the other Flashes pushing themselves to operate at a level that is ultimately wearing them down to maintain until a point where it becomes impossible to keep maintaining, then by definition they're pushing themselves beyond their usual capacity. You waste a lot of space saying that you both somehow agree with this concept, but also that's somehow totally not what it means.
    Actually, no, I was really clear on exactly what I meant. You stated that it's a different mode entirely. I stated that it's simply pushing themselves to the max. You seem to be trying to push the semantics position here, even in the paragraph above. I mean, Barry having to train is part and parcel: he's trained pretty constantly to get faster over the entire run of the show.

    The important point, for what it means in Rumbles, is that the bomb scene is ludicrously beyond anything else they've ever done. I think that you agree with me on that. So why are you arguing for it to be some kind of different mode? Does it even matter in the slightest? It literally changes nothing for Rumbles.

    EDIT: To add: I literally explain the difference in "pushing oneself" in the post you quoted. Going 100% effort isn't a different power or anything. Barry operates most of the time at, say, sub 50% effort. This keeps it below his anaerobic threshold or whatever the Speed Force equivalent is, so he can keep going functionally forever. Sometimes, he pushes himself over that limit. This causes him to tire out. This is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS to everyone on the planet doing physical stuff. It's not special, it's not unique, it's not an extra power. It's just using his power. Remember, he doesn't say "this is "Flashtime"", he says "I call this Flashtime" to which he is asked "is this what it looks like when you use your speed" and he says "yes."
    Last edited by big_adventure; 04-16-2019 at 08:36 AM.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;"
    - Nik Hasta

    "Get off my lawn!

    ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops."

    - Sharpandpointies

    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics."
    -Captain Morgan

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Actually, no, I was really clear on exactly what I meant. You stated that it's a different mode entirely. I stated that it's simply pushing themselves to the max. You seem to be trying to push the semantics position here, even in the paragraph above. I mean, Barry having to train is part and parcel: he's trained pretty constantly to get faster over the entire run of the show.
    "I'm not semantics, you're semantics!" is not an argument. You started with:

    It's also pretty clearly stated in the scene that that is the normal state for the speedsters when they are invoking their speed
    But now you're at "it's simply pushing themselves to the max." To remind you as you're getting pretty close to the "I was then never trying to argue with anything, I replied to your initial post for absolutely no reason relevant to it" place, your entire thing here started with replying to my noting at least for Barry's high end crazy speed thing, at least it screwed him up to do it and hold onto in comparison to Cain Superman's, as far as making look like going that fast was a whole maxed out thing, instead of something casual. If you weren't trying to refute that, it's certainly interesting that you'd chime in with "no, that was normal for them." There's nothing particularly normal about operating at the fastest speed you can while performing various complex operations as you hold onto it and holding onto it for so long you start physically screwing yourself up. He went to a place considerably beyond "winded." Your "sprinting" analogy really only works if at the same time someone is sprinting, they're also doing advanced math calculations, holding strategy meetings, speeding other people up... it's a bad analogy, is maybe what I'm getting at there.

    Either it was normal for them or they were pushing themselves to max capacity and wrecking themselves for it, which do you prefer at this point to keep holding onto trying to find something to disagree with?

    It was certainly so normal for them that by "winded" I imagine you meant Barry was staggering around by the end, Iris could feel him burning up when they touched (since we're talking about what people said) and he ended up in the Star labs check up on Barry to make sure he hasn't screwed himself up care bed at the end.

    The important point, for what it means in Rumbles, is that the bomb scene is ludicrously beyond anything else they've ever done. I think that you agree with me on that. So why are you arguing for it to be some kind of different mode? Does it even matter in the slightest? It literally changes nothing for Rumbles.
    I noted that going that fast well beyond himself was at least shown to ultimately be a thing that screwed Barry up by contrast. You replied to note that such took a while and in fact was "normal" for him. From there you've been taking it to a lot of interesting places, definitely.

    EDIT: To add: I literally explain the difference in "pushing oneself" in the post you quoted. Going 100% effort isn't a different power or anything. Barry operates most of the time at, say, sub 50% effort. This keeps it below his anaerobic threshold or whatever the Speed Force equivalent is, so he can keep going functionally forever. Sometimes, he pushes himself over that limit. This causes him to tire out. This is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS to everyone on the planet doing physical stuff. It's not special, it's not unique, it's not an extra power. It's just using his power. Remember, he doesn't say "this is "Flashtime"", he says "I call this Flashtime" to which he is asked "is this what it looks like when you use your speed" and he says "yes."
    I just referred you to an episode where Barry himself refers to it as a special thing he had to train himself for months to be able to operate in, in those words.

    At this point your argument, all over the place as it is, looks to be twofold.

    You started with "no, that's normal and he could do it for a while." then you added "I totally meant by normal he was hellaciously pushing himself." so I guess we're at least moving past that.

    We're also on "it's also not some special thing", despite Barry himself noting that to be capable of it, as though it is some special thing, required months of training himself and requiring holding on to a specific mindset to be capable of.

    It's not special, it's not unique, it's not an extra power.
    Barry: "Everything looks normal to me when I'm in Flashtime, but it took me months to learn how to operate like that."

    If it's not special, why would they bother to refer to it as something he had to take months to learn? That it takes special effort beyond running? Again, actual words.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 04-16-2019 at 09:32 AM.

  13. #88
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    "I'm not semantics, you're semantics!" is not an argument.
    I don’t want to get into semantics, but it really is, you know...? ;p

  14. #89
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    I don’t want to get into semantics, but it really is, you know...? ;p
    You're semantics ;p

  15. #90
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Ah, the internet: last bastion of maturity.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

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