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  1. #2851
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I welcome Democrats making this argument, rather than having it be the subtext.
    I would too, just because it would piss off a bunch of rednecks and lead to endless noise on Fox News doesn't mean that it's a losing argument, most of those people wouldn't support the Democrats anyway.

  2. #2852
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I welcome Democrats making this argument, rather than having it be the subtext.
    I welcome under Trump the GOP no longer has racism and White Supremacy as a subtext. He has made it their open mandate.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  3. #2853
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    The bottom line is that the right wing thinks everyone else deserves whatever draconian shit happens to them. Engaging with them on any other level is a waste time. All you'll be doing is unraveling the bullshit positions they've had to take to avoid outright telling you that you deserve to be punished.

  4. #2854

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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Mets -- it's a concentration camp by definition.

    "concentration camp -- a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard"

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...tration%20camp

    As you support a party that denies climate change it's hard to take you seriously when you try to argue "facts" -- including those regarding concentration camps.

    And the above reasoning is ridiculous -- pointing out the definition of a concentration camp is not any proof whatsoever that Democrats are for open borders, especially when many of those pointing this out are historians and scholars.

    -----
    "As historian of fascism & Holocaust, I would also call these centers concentrations camps. As a Jewish person who lost family in Holocaust, I regret that some Republicans use memory of the Holocaust to defend racist policies of trumpism."

    https://twitter.com/FinchelsteinF/st...04049795870720
    The argument that it's a concentration camp is category creep, extending the definition so far it no longer means the same thing, while trying to stick with the negative associations of the earlier meaning.

    By the definition of a concentration camp being a place where large numbers of people are confined under armed guard, any prison is a concentration camp.


    Quote Originally Posted by BruceWayneJr. View Post
    The bottom line is that the right wing thinks everyone else deserves whatever draconian shit happens to them. Engaging with them on any other level is a waste time. All you'll be doing is unraveling the bullshit positions they've had to take to avoid outright telling you that you deserve to be punished.
    This is a rather flawed and damaging view.

    It's wrong on several levels.

    It is a mistake to believe that the other side has no value, and is evidence that someone's understanding of the world around them is deeply flawed.

    While American politics is largely binary, it's also a mistake to assume that the other side is a monolithic entity, and that everyone is in agreement on the nastiest and least generous interpretation of their views.

    For many Republicans, it's not about what people deserve, but about going for the best results given the tradeoffs.

  5. #2855
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The argument that it's a concentration camp is category creep, extending the definition so far it no longer means the same thing, while trying to stick with the negative associations of the earlier meaning.

    By the definition of a concentration camp being a place where large numbers of people are confined under armed guard, any prison is a concentration camp.
    Prisoners have been found guilty by law and sentenced legally to such imprisonment, but what of people innocent of anything but seeking asylum (aka not illegal immigrants) that have been caught up in this? Do they deserve the documented mistreatment they receive at these camps in your view?

  6. #2856
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Actual experts and survivors of concentration camps and their relatives are telling us that these are concentration camps. You'll have to to forgive us if we accept their definitions over your's, Mets.

    Hiding behind technicalities and legalism fools no one except you.

  7. #2857

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    Prisoners have been found guilty by law and sentenced legally to such imprisonment, but what of people innocent of anything but seeking asylum (aka not illegal immigrants) that have been caught up in this? Do they deserve the documented mistreatment they receive at these camps in your view?
    With prisoners, it is the duty of the prosecutors to prove their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, since they're being deprived of freedoms their fellow citizens are usually entitled to.

    It's a bit of a reverse with immigration, since the argument is over whether they should get a nice thing the government can't give everybody. This is a glib comparison, but if I say that I should get a one hundred thousand dollar tax refund, which will make my life better, it's up to me to prove that I'm legally entitled to it (I am not). People who aren't Americans aren't typically entitled to citizenship.

    There are multiple categories of immigrants. If someone can prove that they are legal immigrants, due process should apply in disputes. If there's an argument about it, it should be up to the US government to demonstrate that they've violated the terms of the immigration process.

    From my understanding, many of the people who are detained aren't claiming asylum, so that's going to be a different discussion than the one about asylum. That's about standard "undocumented" immigrants.

    The problem with asylum seekers is that the majority of asylum claims are ultimately rejected because while they may have reasons to flee their homeland, it's not the reasons we grant asylum. The asylum process is meant for the persecuted, not for economic migrants. There hasn't been a spike in persecution that would merit a corresponding increase in asylum claims; people are doing it in bad faith or based on misunderstandings or a combination of the two (IE- someone comes to the US based on a flawed understanding of policy, and is coached to lie to increase their chances of getting in.) We should figure out a way to process and send back false claimants faster.

    No one deserves documented mistreatment. There are solutions, including increasing the number of immigration judges, so decisions can be made faster. A big part of the problem is that the facilities aren't meant to hold this many people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Actual experts and survivors of concentration camps and their relatives are telling us that these are concentration camps. You'll have to to forgive us if we accept their definitions over your's, Mets.

    Hiding behind technicalities and legalism fools no one except you.
    I respectfully disagree with the viewpoint that undocumented immigrants and desperate people making false claims about asylum have as much of a moral right to get citizenship in the United States, as German Jews did to be full citizens in 1930s Germany, but decent people can argue it.

  8. #2858
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    By the definition of a concentration camp being a place where large numbers of people are confined under armed guard, any prison is a concentration camp.
    Well now that you bring it up, we do have the world's largest prison population comprised mainly of minorities who were mostly put there for non-violent drug offenses, and there's also a clause in the Constitution specifically stating that using prisoners for slave labor is A-OK. And it's not a secret that the actual Nazis admired the American legal system for all of the ways it managed to exclude minorities from meaningful participation while maintaining a veneer of civility.

  9. #2859
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    I respectfully disagree with the viewpoint that undocumented immigrants and desperate people making false claims about asylum have as much of a moral right to get citizenship in the United States, as German Jews did to be full citizens in 1930s Germany, but decent people can argue it.
    Literally none of that has to do with whether or not we're running concentration camps.

    We are. No amount semantic gameplaying will change that.
    Last edited by Tendrin; 06-18-2019 at 09:01 PM.

  10. #2860
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The argument that it's a concentration camp is category creep, extending the definition so far it no longer means the same thing, while trying to stick with the negative associations of the earlier meaning.
    It's not "creep" Mets -- it's the literal definition of what they are as defined by the Merriam-Webster dictionary.

    Scholars and historians also agree that they are concentration camps but here you are trying to argue against facts again, just because you disagree with them due to personal politics.

    It speaks volumes about both you and your party that you can't even call them what the dictionary says they are: concentration camps.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 06-18-2019 at 09:11 PM.

  11. #2861
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Right? The dictionary, the experts, survivors/relatives of survivors of the holocaust and Japanese internment and the historians all agree that these are concentration camps.


    B-b-but some asylum seekers might be lying or something!
    Last edited by Tendrin; 06-18-2019 at 09:29 PM.

  12. #2862
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    No one deserves documented mistreatment.
    I understand what you mean here, however your arguments imply you're fine with them getting this mistreatment as long as they aren't here legally. It also jokingly sounds like you support undocumented mistreatment.

    There are solutions, including increasing the number of immigration judges, so decisions can be made faster. A big part of the problem is that the facilities aren't meant to hold this many people.
    The GoP you support is slashing funding for the camps for both children and adults, and moving them to military areas less subject to oversight. They cherry picked the ones who designed and built the facilities that 'weren't meant' to hold that many people, and more and more people are dying in these camps as well.

  13. #2863
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    One of those areas they're using is literally the same base as for the Japanese-American /concentration camp/.

  14. #2864
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Just because it's not as awful and horrific as the worst concentration camps in all of history doesn't mean that it's not a concentration camp.

  15. #2865
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Literally none of that has to do with whether or not we're running concentration camps.

    We are. No amount semantic gameplaying will change that.
    The conditions the people are being kept in are unacceptable and should be radically improved.

    But I still suspect that most of the people attempting to come into USA are economic migrants seeking to improve their lives (as I I might do myself in their circumstances!) rather than asylum seekers in considerable life danger in their own country.

    For that reason I would accept USA has a legitimate case for incarcerating them while their asylum status is established one way or the other.

    I also struggle to see any substantial ethical difference between this and Guantanamo Bay...where people were again held for years in poor conditions without a fair trial.

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