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  1. #2911

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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    That question has nothing to do with your party's reprehensible treatment of immigrants -- and other minorities -- which is the issue at hand.

    Not semantics, not limiting principles, but basic human decency.

    It's important to maintain perspective. America, even under Trump, treats immigrants better than most other countries do.

    So the argument about basic human decency neglects the policies of the other humans.

    I disagree that the only issue at hand is how one party treats immigrants or minorities (the state of minorities is an overlapping but different argument). If a prominent Democratic member of Congress uses Holocaust analogies to describe detention centers for migrants, which was where I entered the conversation, it could suggest Democrats may be going too far in the other position.

    On the topic of legal immigration, I am to the left of the median Democrat voter in wanting a limited increase in the current numbers. But it still has to be a limited increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Disagree. Mets doesn't really contribute anything to these discussions, he just derails everything with his pedantry and keeps insisting there is some sinister open borders agenda at play, even though that isn't really all that sinister. If he's what passes for a reasonable conservative these days, then their camp is in serious trouble.
    From my perspective, what you see is pedantry is from responses to what I view as weak arguments.

    I don't think there's a sinister open borders agenda at play with the left. I just disagree with it, but I'm not claiming that the people pushing for it think it's going to make things worse. My comments about it are generally in response to others; (this is how talk of open borders came up this time as well.)

    The purpose of the thread is to have a discussion on politics. It's not supposed to be limited to one subsection of views, as much as it seems some of the regulars prefer it that way, pushing for a left-wing anti-Bernie/Bernie-skeptical sliver of conversation.

    Political views can be contentious, since we are talking about serious issues where the stakes are high. Everyone standing in the way of the ideal policies is preventing millions from reaching their full potential, and probably resulting in a lot of premature death as well. The further someone else's views are, the more we think someone else's perspective is harmful, and the harder it is to imagine that they could be coming to this from a legitimate place.

    Despite the high stakes, and the limited likelihood of changing anyone's mind, the goal should be to discuss things civilly without arguing about the other person. I get that the latter part gets complicated the more comments people make, and the more we get a sense of perceived shortcomings/ hypocrisies, although it's also very easy to be mistaken about someone coming at the discussion from a different frame of reference.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    Tacit approval.
    You're opining about what you imagine Democrats would do and how bad it would be while turning a blind eye to the abuse of children that is currently going on when Republicans actually have a greater measure of control. Perhaps you should instead wonder about what the GOP would do if they had no Democratic party or public to hold them in check.
    I'm glad of the existence of the Democratic party to hold off the excesses of the right. You could argue that there are plenty of places where we get a sense of what near-complete GOP control is like (Wyoming has a Republican Governor, and Republicans have 27 out of 30 state Senate seats and 50 out of 60 State House seats) even if it doesn't quite cover all aspects of policy (Wyoming doesn't engage in foreign policy, and the state will be limited by the federal government.)

  2. #2912
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Meanwhile:


    SAN FRANCISCO (CN) – The Trump administration argued in front of a Ninth Circuit panel Tuesday that the government is not required to give soap or toothbrushes to children apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border and can have them sleep on concrete floors in frigid, overcrowded cells, despite a settlement agreement that requires detainees be kept in “safe and sanitary” facilities.
    All three judges appeared incredulous during the hearing in San Francisco, in which the Trump administration challenged previous legal findings that it is violating a landmark class action settlement by mistreating undocumented immigrant children at U.S. detention facilities.
    But, yeah, sure Mets. Let's talk about the 'limit' on immigration -- a limit you only want to discuss so you can define the limits of the conversation rather than be forced to look at what your party is doing and what you are being an apologist for.

    https://www.courthousenews.com/feds-...-without-soap/
    Last edited by Tendrin; 06-19-2019 at 10:09 PM.

  3. #2913
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    These are dark times indeed if they have no shame in making statements like that in court. IMO Stephen Miller is the dark prince in the shadows that knows how to play Trump. Truth to tell, their views are not that far apart anyway. Miller is the hatchet man that implements their twisted agenda

    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Saw some of Trumps rantings at his Florida rally. Your politics are fucked. He went full facist "The democrats hate you, want to destroy you and ruin america".
    Yes, I caught a bit of that myself and it's not just the politics that are screwed up. I'm thinkiing that even if Trump isn't doing well in the polls, there's somewhere between 40 - 45 percent of the voters that would vote for him if the election were today. I don't think he will reach 63 million as he did in 2016. But if he gets even 50-60 million votes in 2020, I find that terribly depressing and dangerous. It's frightening to know that there are that many in his cult that used to be called the Republican party. Trump followers care nothing about the Constitution except the part where they get to have guns. The fact that Trump is serious about going beyond a second term is frightening. Bill Maher has been saying this for a while now, that Trump won't go away quietly if he doesn't get re-elected. He's already got millions believing his "fake news" mantra and the "Deep State" conspiracy. He throws around treason charges about reporting that is negative about him.

    I keep going back to little bit of info about Trump that I read years ago in a Vanity Fair article ....

    According to a 1990 Vanity Fair interview, Ivana Trump once told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that her husband, real-estate mogul Donald Trump, now a leading Republican presidential candidate, kept a book of Hitler's speeches near his bed.

    "Last April, perhaps in a surge of Czech nationalism, Ivana Trump told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that from time to time her husband reads a book of Hitler's collected speeches, My New Order, which he keeps in a cabinet by his bed ... Hitler's speeches, from his earliest days up through the Phony War of 1939, reveal his extraordinary ability as a master propagandist," Marie Brenner wrote.

    Hitler was one of history's most prolific orators, building a genocidal Nazi regime with speeches that bewitched audiences.
    Now Trump has these big plans for a Fourth of July celebration which will include a speech by Trump. What do you want to bet the content will just be another one of his typical rallies. He probably will have the crowd "chanting Lock her up" like he did down in Florida. You would have thought he was running against Hillary again.

  4. #2914
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    These are dark times indeed if they have no shame in making statements like that in court. IMO Stephen Miller is the dark prince in the shadows that knows how to play Trump. Truth to tell, their views are not that far apart anyway. Miller is the hatchet man that implements their twisted agenda



    Yes, I caught a bit of that myself and it's not just the politics that are screwed up. I'm thinkiing that even if Trump isn't doing well in the polls, there's somewhere between 40 - 45 percent of the voters that would vote for him if the election were today. I don't think he will reach 63 million as he did in 2016. But if he gets even 50-60 million votes in 2020, I find that terribly depressing and dangerous. It's frightening to know that there are that many in his cult that used to be called the Republican party. Trump followers care nothing about the Constitution except the part where they get to have guns. The fact that Trump is serious about going beyond a second term is frightening. Bill Maher has been saying this for a while now, that Trump won't go away quietly if he doesn't get re-elected. He's already got millions believing his "fake news" mantra and the "Deep State" conspiracy. He throws around treason charges about reporting that is negative about him.

    I keep going back to little bit of info about Trump that I read years ago in a Vanity Fair article ....



    Now Trump has these big plans for a Fourth of July celebration which will include a speech by Trump. What do you want to bet the content will just be another one of his typical rallies. He probably will have the crowd "chanting Lock her up" like he did down in Florida. You would have thought he was running against Hillary again.
    Trevor Noah just showed how Trump's speech from the other day is practically identical to a speech from 2016. He's like an aging rock star who knows his fans only want to hear the hits. "Build the wall." "Lock her up." "MAGA"

    Last edited by Malvolio; 06-19-2019 at 11:36 PM.

  5. #2915
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    Trevor Noah just showed how Trump's speech from the other day is practically identical to a speech from 2016. He's like an aging rock star who knows his fans only want to hear the hits. "Build the wall." "Lock her up." "MAGA"

    And the Politico headline for the event was "Trump stages his greatest show yet!"

    They're doing it again, and it could get all of us killed.
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

    Hillary was right!

  6. #2916
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    From the "Illinois..." corner -

    - https://news.wttw.com/2019/06/19/fbi...-carrie-austin

    FBI Raids 34th Ward Office of Ald. Carrie Austin

  7. #2917
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    I keep monitoring the situation in Germany, and it seems that they, too, need to do more against neonazis.

    As the investigation into the murder of Walter Lübcke intensifies, Cologne's mayor and several other German politicians have had their lives threatened. Police say the threats likely also stem from right-wing extremists.

    While campaigning in 2015, Reker was stabbed by a right-wing extremist wielding a hunting knife and suffered serious injuries. The attacker said he targeted Reker because of her pro-refugee stance.

    According to local public broadcaster WDR, one of the other politicians targeted is Andreas Hollstein, the mayor of the western town of Altena.

    Like Reker, Hollstein was also stabbed, in 2017, by a man who shouted anti-migrant remarks before slashing the politician's neck with a knife in a kebab shop.
    I guess both those mayors are grateful that Germany at least has strict gun controls, otherwise they would not have survived the previous attempts on their lives.
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

    Hillary was right!

  8. #2918
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    What went wrong in the developing world that it's seeing such a big surge of white supremacists?

  9. #2919
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    It's important to maintain perspective. America, even under Trump, treats immigrants better than most other countries do.
    Deflection and projection.

    Par for course.

  10. #2920
    Mighty Member SquirrelMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    What went wrong in the developing world that it's seeing such a big surge of white supremacists?
    Those people have always been there. It has been easier to amplify their voices. And the end of the Soviet Union has led to a Russia that is supporting those groups to destabilize the West.

  11. #2921
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquirrelMan View Post
    Those people have always been there. It has been easier to amplify their voices. And the end of the Soviet Union has led to a Russia that is supporting those groups to destabilize the West.
    Meanwhile, here in the States, white supremacists from coast to coast are jumping for joy because they FINALLY have someone in the Oval Office willingly and eagerly championing their racist causes in Trump who, thirty years later, STILL wants the Central Park Five put to death, even though conclusive evidence cleared them of all guilt. How much of that is Trump stubbornly unwilling to admit he was wrong about the outcome of the case, and how much is the fact he wants those men dead because they're black?
    Last edited by WestPhillyPunisher; 06-20-2019 at 08:16 AM.
    Avatar: Here's to the late, great Steve Dillon. Best. Punisher. Artist. EVER!

  12. #2922
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    What went wrong in the developing world that it's seeing such a big surge of white supremacists?
    Income inequity. The Rich and powerful are very good at taking the attention off of them and focusing it on those lower than the working class.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  13. #2923
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    Meanwhile, here in the States, white supremacists from coast to coast are jumping for joy because they FINALLY have someone in the Oval Office willingly and eagerly championing their racist causes in Trump who, thirty years later, STILL wants the Central Park Five put to death, even though conclusive evidence cleared them of all guilt. How much of that is Trump stubbornly unwilling to admit he was wrong about the outcome of the case, and how much is the fact he wants those men dead because they're black?
    It's more the former than the latter. Trump doesn't want all black men dead. He needs a few of them to be window dressing like Dr. Ben Carson to "prove" that he's not racist.

  14. #2924
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    What went wrong in the developing world that it's seeing such a big surge of white supremacists?
    The world is changing. There is more power and influence for non-white men than ever.

    There was bound to be push-back at some point.
    Last edited by Theleviathan; 06-20-2019 at 09:55 AM.

  15. #2925

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    The same party that tried convincing us that socialized healthcare in 2009-2010 were actually "Death Panels"... is the same party right now arguing that detention centers where migrant children are being detained after being ripped away from their parents in the cheapest conditions-without basic human rights, clean living conditions, and have reported in some instances to have been locked in sealed vans overnight... that party would like you tell now tell you how unfair it is that experts on concentration camps are calling them "concentration camps".

    The GOP can go get f***ed, from where I'm sitting.
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