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  1. #9631
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Europe has been economically stagnant for the last decade, and a big reason why is that their more worker-focused companies aren't able to match the innovation of more ruthlessly capitalist competitors, combined with the need to support a growing elderly population with a shrinking working age population increasingly composed of immigrants. Hence the recent trend of European countries adopting more neoliberal policies to try and improve their competitiveness while limiting the benefits that people can draw to try and push them into more American style working habits. Trying to emulate the European social democratic model right when it's on the precipice of collapse seems a bit foolish to me.
    By what measure are they collapsing?

    And I can't possibly see how an argument of "Their economies lack incentive and stagnate!" is at all a good argument from a pro-socialist point of view.

  2. #9632
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/public-...me-immigrants/

    Courts block Trump rule to deny green cards and visas to low-income immigrants

  3. #9633
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    Boss Madigan and the icy heart of the 13th Ward


    That’s Boss Madigan, boss of the Illinois Democratic Party, boss of every Democratic lawmaker in the state (and many Republicans on bended knee), boss of taxes, boss of judges, boss of the Chicago and Illinois political maps and boss of his neighborhood.

    The story tells of how the 13th Ward organization bullied its residents to sign sworn affidavits revoking their support for young David Krupa, who had the gall to challenge a Madigan minion, Ald. Marty Quinn, 13th.

    Loyal readers may remember Krupa, a student at DePaul University, from those initial stories I wrote about what happened to him during the last city election.

    What happened was some 2,000 ward residents were muscled into committing perjury to pacify political goons trying to knock Krupa off the ballot.

    “I hope the FBI reads the Chicago Tribune story,” Krupa told me Thursday. “It’s all about fear. It’s extremely enlightening, and one of the most in-depth examinations ever of how the Madigan machine works and how they intimidate voters to do what they want. I just hope the FBI reads it.

    I’ve got a feeling the FBI has read it, and that they know about Boss Madigan and the 13th Ward. That big federal bus, driven by a guy named Rico, keeps rolling from Chicago to Springfield.
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  4. #9634
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    By what measure are they collapsing?

    And I can't possibly see how an argument of "Their economies lack incentive and stagnate!" is at all a good argument from a pro-socialist point of view.
    Like I said in the other post, it's more of a slow-moving train wreck than a sudden collapse. And pointing out that socialist economies are less competitive is simply a statement of fact, and doesn't discredit socialism as an ideology because unchecked growth is not the goal as it is with capitalism. At the end of the day, we have to recognize that there isn't some kind of middle road that lets us have it all, we have to make a choice as to whether we value prosperity or fairness.

  5. #9635
    Ol' Doogie, Circa 2005 JDogindy's Avatar
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    In Indiana, our Democratic Party leader is a featherweight that I've described multiple times as a jellyfish and only kisses the ass of every center-right politician who runs on the blue ticket.

    What this sounds like is him using his clout to keep the state party as a gentleman's club.

  6. #9636
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Add another Dem into WBE's April Fools Day queue.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  7. #9637
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Like I said in the other post, it's more of a slow-moving train wreck than a sudden collapse. And pointing out that socialist economies are less competitive is simply a statement of fact, and doesn't discredit socialism as an ideology because unchecked growth is not the goal as it is with capitalism. At the end of the day, we have to recognize that there isn't some kind of middle road that lets us have it all, we have to make a choice as to whether we value prosperity or fairness.
    But part of the argument for capitalism is that the prosperity and competitiveness aids all of humanity. It leads to more innovation, risk taking, and a variety of other aspects that have demonstrably improved humanities quality of life. It's not perfect, but it's not irrelevant either. Slowing that in the name of more fairness has not proven to break capitalism. The two can co-exist are are currently co-existing, imperfect as it may be to some. Socialism, on the other hand, has yet to show it can exist in the world with progressivism. I don't think I can overstate that last point.

    I'd like to see what evidence there is of a slow moving trainwreck also.

  8. #9638
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    As Iím a scant five years away from going on Medicare, this concerns me greatly.
    I bet he'll come around to exempting people already on it, maybe even those who are close to qualifying so as to not anger those specific voters.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  9. #9639
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    Boss Madigan and the icy heart of the 13th Ward

    Thatís Boss Madigan, boss of the Illinois Democratic Party, boss of every Democratic lawmaker in the state (and many Republicans on bended knee), boss of taxes, boss of judges, boss of the Chicago and Illinois political maps and boss of his neighborhood.

    The story tells of how the 13th Ward organization bullied its residents to sign sworn affidavits revoking their support for young David Krupa, who had the gall to challenge a Madigan minion, Ald. Marty Quinn, 13th.
    Loyal readers may remember Krupa, a student at DePaul University, from those initial stories I wrote about what happened to him during the last city election.

    What happened was some 2,000 ward residents were muscled into committing perjury to pacify political goons trying to knock Krupa off the ballot.

    ďI hope the FBI reads the Chicago Tribune story,Ē Krupa told me Thursday. ďItís all about fear. Itís extremely enlightening, and one of the most in-depth examinations ever of how the Madigan machine works and how they intimidate voters to do what they want. I just hope the FBI reads it.

    Iíve got a feeling the FBI has read it, and that they know about Boss Madigan and the 13th Ward. That big federal bus, driven by a guy named Rico, keeps rolling from Chicago to Springfield.
    Quote Originally Posted by JDogindy View Post
    In Indiana, our Democratic Party leader is a featherweight that I've described multiple times as a jellyfish and only kisses the ass of every center-right politician who runs on the blue ticket.

    What this sounds like is him using his clout to keep the state party as a gentleman's club.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Add another Dem into WBE's April Fools Day queue.
    While there is always no telling how the dots will wind up connecting in Illinois' politics, the Feds raided the villages of Lyons/McCook/Summit near the end of last month.

  10. #9640
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    But part of the argument for capitalism is that the prosperity and competitiveness aids all of humanity. It leads to more innovation, risk taking, and a variety of other aspects that have demonstrably improved humanities quality of life. It's not perfect, but it's not irrelevant either. Slowing that in the name of more fairness has not proven to break capitalism. The two can co-exist are are currently co-existing, imperfect as it may be to some. Socialism, on the other hand, has yet to show it can exist in the world with progressivism. I don't think I can overstate that last point.

    I'd like to see what evidence there is of a slow moving trainwreck also.
    The European Central Bank has pumped so much money into banking system in an effort to stimulate the economy that their interest rates have been negative for the last five years, to basically no effect. The inability to develop viable high-tech companies leads to an over-reliance on traditional manufacturing which has been hit hard by uncertainty over trade wars. A low birthrate and resistance to immigration leading to an aging population that must be supported out of a shrinking tax base. And in the midst of all of this, the rise of far right parties that threaten to tear the continent apart, thus throwing away the one remaining asset that Europe really has - its relative political and economic unity.

  11. #9641
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    The European Central Bank has pumped so much money into banking system in an effort to stimulate the economy that their interest rates have been negative for the last five years, to basically no effect. The inability to develop viable high-tech companies leads to an over-reliance on traditional manufacturing which has been hit hard by uncertainty over trade wars. A low birthrate and resistance to immigration leading to an aging population that must be supported out of a shrinking tax base. And in the midst of all of this, the rise of far right parties that threaten to tear the continent apart, thus throwing away the one remaining asset that Europe really has - its relative political and economic unity.
    Most of these are cultural factors. The dissolution of the EU is a threat for sure but none of these things are certainties. Risks, yes, but far from inevitable. Especially since they've been functional for decades.

    How many years has a large scale, progressive socialist country lasted?

  12. #9642
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    Most of these are cultural factors. The dissolution of the EU is a threat for sure but none of these things are certainties. Risks, yes, but far from inevitable. Especially since they've been functional for decades.

    How many years has a large scale, progressive socialist country lasted?
    It kind of matters that the US is allied with most of Europe and is reflexively hostile to any and all socialist states. Rojava had a good thing going for a while though, too bad it's all going down the shitter now cause, you know, they didn't help us out in WW2 (even though they did).

  13. #9643
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    Sanders on difference with Warren: she's a capitalist 'I'm not'

    Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) said in a new interview that a major difference between him and Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) is Warren's support of capitalism.

    In an interview airing Sunday with ABC's Jon Karl, Sanders struck a stronger tone in distancing himself from Warren's views on economic policy than he has in previous months, and again asserted that he was the strongest candidate to take on entrenched, powerful corporations and special interest groups in Washington.

    "There are differences between Elizabeth and myself," Sanders said, referring to Warren. "Elizabeth, I think, as you know, has said that she is a capitalist through her bones. I’m not.”

    "I am, I believe, the only candidate who's going to say to the ruling class of this country, 'Enough. Enough with your greed, and with your corruption. We need real change in this country,' " Sanders added.
    One more reason why I can feel comfortable voting for Warren and not Sanders. I like Capitalism, as long as it is regulated, measured, responsible - fiscally, environmentally, & socially responsible.
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  14. #9644
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    Sanders on difference with Warren: she's a capitalist 'I'm not'



    One more reason why I can feel comfortable voting for Warren and not Sanders. I like Capitalism, as long as it is regulated, measured, responsible - fiscally, environmentally, & socially responsible.

    I think people make the frequent mistake of confusing 'capitalism' and the concept of a free market. The two are not so linked as capitalists would have us believe. It is, in fact, to the benefit of the ownership class that this link remains strong in people's minds even when capitalists very obviously do not want an actual free market.
    Last edited by Tendrin; 10-12-2019 at 08:14 PM.

  15. #9645
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    Sanders on difference with Warren: she's a capitalist 'I'm not'



    One more reason why I can feel comfortable voting for Warren and not Sanders. I like Capitalism, as long as it is regulated, measured, responsible - fiscally, environmentally, & socially responsible.
    When is this happening?

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