All Purpose News and Politics Thread Part IV: The Center Cannot Hold

[PwrdOn]

You’re right.

I have so little experience of cultures other than my own, that I find it super difficult to really understand the real differences between various countries.

Most especially between US and UK..where my instinctive reaction is to think of Americans as very like Brits, but a bit more open minded and extrovert.

It's pretty easy to understand the American mindset once you wrap your head around the notion that all of the freedoms and rights that we love to tout were only really made possible because the extermination of natives and enslavement of blacks provided such a surplus of resources to white men that a lot of the ethnic and class conflicts that had marked their lives back in Europe were suddenly rendered irrelevant. In America, even the humblest peasant, provided he was white of course, could come over and claim a chunk of free land with plenty of free labor to work it, and live like a king with all of the associated rights and privileges that only the nobility would've enjoyed back in the old country. Over the last 50 years so, we've tried to rectify this hypocrisy by trying to extend those same rights to everyone and not just the privileged few that they were intended for, but without a disenfranchised underclass to extract wealth from, all of that sweet talk of liberty and justice hasn't really been able to manifest in reality.

Racism won't disappear just by convincing racists to be better people, because racist policies provided tangible benefits to them and it is simply in their best interest to do whatever it takes to preserve those benefits, ideals of equality be damned. Our only real options here are to either pay them off, which would just open the door to more future extortion, wait for them to die off, who knows how long that will take, or to adopt their tactics and start stripping the racists of their rights and privileges, which obviously would just shift the problem rather than solving it.

Also, I feel like people these days are seriously overstating the cultural differences between people to try and carve up the world into these disconnected spheres that can just never understand each other, which is definitely not true. People are largely the same on the inside, they appear to be different because their culture dictates how they express their feelings and, just as importantly, how to interpret the expressions of others. Understanding other people's cultures is largely about figuring out the norms and codes by which they communicate, but once you do, you discover that people everywhere largely share the same hopes and aspirations and that value systems are largely dictated by expediency and self-interest, not by some core cultural impetus.

For example, I don't think that it's somehow embedded in the British DNA to subjugate and exploit other peoples, but they did it because it benefited them and invented whatever rationale they had to justify it. Now that a return to imperialism is no longer feasible and the UK is itself having to push back against the influences of more powerful foreign nations, the British suddenly deem self-determination and sovereignty for all ethnic groups to be at the core of what it means to be British. This doesn't mean that the Brits of the past were bad and those of the present are good, both are simply doing what best serves their interests.

[Mister Mets]

Maybe Mets needs to realize that the policy positions of today's Democrats, perhaps with the exception of LGBTQ issues and on abortion... on most issues they're sitting about where Republicans were in the 1980s. And yes, that includes immigration and gun control.

I'm interested in that argument. Do you have data that supports this well? Does it show that Democrats advocate the same amount of spending per person on most issues as Republicans did in the 1980s?

And I already told you a long time ago that you're just trying to distract from your party's behavior by asking hypothetical questions, and then formulating your own responses based on biased conjecture instead of accepting statistical facts and data provided regarding the Democrats record on immigration.

Now you're doing the same thing again -- deflecting to "Democrats" with biased assumptions rather than addressing the faults of your own party -- because it's the only way you know how to deal with the fact that your party is a corrupt, racist, criminal cabal that abuses children for votes.

Tami pointed out that this is a waste of time a long time ago and she's right -- I just wanted to expose your bias, not try to convince you that Democrats aren't for "open borders" because there's no point in trying to "convince" someone who chooses opinion over facts even in the face of solid data.

You're obviously more concerned about hypothetical "open borders" than having an actual Republican white nationalist in the office of the presidency so there's no point in trying to find "common ground" on the issue since it's also obvious that, like most Republicans, you support said president's agenda.

You and Trump can keep railing against the "radical left" and supporting inhumane and criminal behavior towards "minorities" if you want to -- just don't try to pretend you aren't his "base" when you do so.



That would require admission that the Democratic party is far more moderate than "radical" and he can't do that since his (and Trump's) goal is to paint them as such in order to convince people that Republican policies -- like family separation and denying children medical care -- are "reasonable" in contrast.

Fearmongering, lies, and distractions -- Mets acts like Trump was a fluke when in actuality he represents the Republican party at it's core.

A lot of political discourse comes down to conjecture, and concerns about the effects of current and potential policies.

We seem to have three fundamental philosophical differences, beyond anything partisan. I'm assuming that you're operating in good faith, telling me what you believe and never holding anything back that you're thinking about that isn't helpful to your side of the argument.

The first difference is that you're looking at records, and I'm looking at indications that past records might not apply in the future due to changes in the views of the electorate, as well as outside circumstances. I've cited my sources before. If you believe Democrats aren't going to push for any increase on legal immigration, they've yet to articulate this. The past records also aren't that great (keeping the system as is with an amnesty every now and then isn't a workable idea; neither is kicking the problem down the road for political gain.)

I'm also looking at potential consequences of policies, or a lack thereof. What incentives are we creating?

The final difference is that I always think it's important to offer solutions rather than complaints. It is always possible that whatever is being done now is better than the alternative, and we can't really measure that unless someone gives a workable alternative. This is hard as the solutions tend to have some kind of tradeoffs, and it's so much easier to avoid discussing that. An example of where a lack of solutions backfired for Republicans is with the efforts to repeal Obamacare where they were unable to agree on what the replacement would be. I wonder if Democrats are in the same place with the solution to the migrant crisis.

[aja_christopher]

The first difference is that you're looking at records, and I'm looking at indications that past records might not apply in the future due to changes in the views of the electorate, as well as outside circumstances.

Correct -- you're looking for places to impose your personal hypotheses and political biases instead of simply accepting the data at face value, and then doing so.

You might be interesting in doing that -- and avoiding discussing the bigotry and criminality of your party in the process -- but I've made it clear both in the past and the present that I'm not.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

Can't say this comes as anything in the way of a surprise:

Justice Dept. will not charge police in connection with Eric Garner’s death

[PaulBullion]

Federal Judge Bans Roger Stone From All Social Media But Imposes No Jail Time For Violating Her Gag Order

[Kirby101]

So we still are forced to see immigration (a "crisis" of Trump's own making) as the biggest issue of our time and need to condemn the Democrats for not having a perfect plan to fix Trump's mess.
Meanwhile the real important issues, Healthcare, Income inequity, Climate Change, Corporate power, Civil Rights, which the GOP ignore or add to the problem, and which the Dems have been very clear about solutions, are dismissed, because the Dems can't solve immigration. (whatever that means)

Have I gotten that right?

[Gray Lensman]

Can't say this comes as anything in the way of a surprise:

Justice Dept. will not charge police in connection with Eric Garner’s death

The Supreme Court has applied qualified immunity to just about everything any police officer does. Even if they wanted to do something (which I highly doubt), they probably couldn't. Qualified immunity has become a cancer upon the justice system, and it needs a serious rollback.

[InformationGeek]

Oh hey, more racists backing up a racist.

Kevin McCarthy, Liz Cheney and Steve Scalise join in defending President Trump's "go back" comments.

[aja_christopher]

So we still are forced to see immigration (a "crisis" of Trump's own making) as the biggest issue of our time and need to condemn the Democrats for not having a perfect plan to fix Trump's mess.
Meanwhile the real important issues, Healthcare, Income inequity, Climate Change, Corporate power, Civil Rights, which the GOP ignore or add to the problem, and which the Dems have been very clear about solutions, are dismissed, because the Dems can't solve immigration. (whatever that means)

Have I gotten that right?

I doubt he's saying the other issues should be dismissed but when they are discussed, similar tactics are utilized in defense of his party.

If I recall correctly, his take on climate change was that Republicans don't have to worry about it because scientists will probably work something out before it gets to be a serious problem.

I didn't even bother trying to argue with that one -- I just use it as a reminder of exactly what I'm dealing with when we discuss these issues.

Oh hey, more racists backing up a racist.

[SquirrelMan]

So we still are forced to see immigration (a "crisis" of Trump's own making) as the biggest issue of our time and need to condemn the Democrats for not having a perfect plan to fix Trump's mess.
Meanwhile the real important issues, Healthcare, Income inequity, Climate Change, Corporate power, Civil Rights, which the GOP ignore or add to the problem, and which the Dems have been very clear about solutions, are dismissed, because the Dems can't solve immigration. (whatever that means)

Have I gotten that right?

Respecting the flag also seems to be one of the pressing issues of the day. And Benghazi and Hillary's emails.

[Jack Dracula]

You’re right.

I have so little experience of cultures other than my own, that I find it super difficult to really understand the real differences between various countries.

Most especially between US and UK..where my instinctive reaction is to think of Americans as very like Brits, but a bit more open minded and extrovert.

You should visit the rural midwest or south sometime. You'll discover most of the people are very much the opposite.

[SquirrelMan]

Movement in that new CNN poll of NH, since April:

Joe Biden - 24% (+6)
Elizabeth Warren 19% (+14)
Bernie Sanders - 19% (-11)
Pete Buttigieg - 10% (-5)
Kamala Harris - 9% (+5)

[Iron Maiden]

Oh hey, more racists backing up a racist.

I watched part of that. Generally, they were there to push back for Trump and say that the Squad has made racists remarks, etc and they brought up Israel. Oh, and Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy brought up how they are the party of Lincoln, as if that is even relevant today.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

Oh hey, more racists backing up a racist.

I'm not familiar with McCarthy, however, Cheney is just as detestable as her loathsome husband while Scalise continued being a gun rights fanatic after he was nearly shot to death, so their support of Ronnie the Racist doesn't shock me in the slightest.

[Kirby101]

I'm not familiar with McCarthy, however, Cheney is just as detestable as her loathsome husband while Scalise continued being a gun rights fanatic after he was nearly shot to death, so their support of Ronnie the Racist doesn't shock me in the slightest.

Liz Cheney is the Devil Spawn daughter of Dick, not his demon bride.