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  1. #6886
    Genesis of A Nemesis Things Fall Apart's Avatar
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    Did they pay them? Sounds like a better deal than my ancestors got for "immigrating".
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  2. #6887
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Since we still have work that only Immigrants seem willing to do, I don't see the problem. How many ghost towns do we have that could still be viable if they had people living there willing to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    It didn't exist because we took care of each other. We also didn't get in the way of people coming here and helped them get started on realizing their own personal freedoms.

    1883 Germany passed the first Healthcare bill ... it wasn't until after 1929 that welfare as we know it now was created in the US and other places because people decided to keep their excess instead of helping others.

    So, you want to argue about welfare? It was a basic human thing to do when the poem was written ... it was part of American culture to help others. But now we need a laws to encourage people to not be jerks and help other's in need?

    Kinda sad you need a law to be encouraged to do the right thing and help those in need. Not very American. And not being a good human being to others.
    Modern Conservatism is laser focused on making sure any money & assistance goes to those that it thinks are worthy of it and no one else.

  3. #6888
    Genesis of A Nemesis Things Fall Apart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    Since we still have work that only Immigrants seem willing to do, I don't see the problem.
    Bringing in people to do the work for you, while you under pay them, and profit off their sweat, all while bitching about the fact that they are draining the system is pretty much as conservative a position as you can get.
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  4. #6889
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    Stock market was down 300, up 600, down 100, up 400 ... this is going to be wild ride.
    At best, I see it breaking even. At worst, it's going to end in the negative. My prediction.
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  5. #6890
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Things Fall Apart View Post
    Bringing in people to do the work for you, while you under pay them, and profit off their sweat, all while bitching about the fact that they are draining the system is pretty much as conservative a position as you can get.
    Ironic thing is, all that Trump and the Republicans are doing is going to backfire in their faces eventually (probably, if we're lucky). Issues such as low wages are now in the public mind. Once Imigratiuon reform becomes a reality, the laws are going to be so pro-immigrant that ultra-conservatives are going to have anxiety attacks.
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  6. #6891

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    Since we still have work that only Immigrants seem willing to do, I don't see the problem. How many ghost towns do we have that could still be viable if they had people living there willing to work?



    Modern Conservatism is laser focused on making sure any money & assistance goes to those that it thinks are worthy of it and no one else.
    There are two separate arguments that shouldn't be conflated. Should immigrants be public charges is largely a different question from whether immigration is a good idea. There is significantly more public support for immigration than there is for generous welfare programs for immigrants.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    It didn't exist because we took care of each other. We also didn't get in the way of people coming here and helped them get started on realizing their own personal freedoms.

    1883 Germany passed the first Healthcare bill ... it wasn't until after 1929 that welfare as we know it now was created in the US and other places because people decided to keep their excess instead of helping others.

    So, you want to argue about welfare? It was a basic human thing to do when the poem was written ... it was part of American culture to help others. But now we need a laws to encourage people to not be jerks and help other's in need?

    Kinda sad you need a law to be encouraged to do the right thing and help those in need. Not very American. And not being a good human being to others.
    There was a lot of poverty in the United States at that time, so people weren't that able to take care of others. And that's before we consider the racism and xenophobia of the era.

    There is also a distinction between individuals and private organizations helping a needy group, and directing taxpayer dollars to that end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    Ironic thing is, all that Trump and the Republicans are doing is going to backfire in their faces eventually (probably, if we're lucky). Issues such as low wages are now in the public mind. Once Imigratiuon reform becomes a reality, the laws are going to be so pro-immigrant that ultra-conservatives are going to have anxiety attacks.
    What do you think immigration reform is going to look like, in terms of changes to the number of legal immigrants, citizenship processes for currently undocumented immigrants, and border policy?

  7. #6892
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Things Fall Apart View Post
    Bringing in people to do the work for you, while you under pay them, and profit off their sweat, all while bitching about the fact that they are draining the system is pretty much as conservative a position as you can get.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    Ironic thing is, all that Trump and the Republicans are doing is going to backfire in their faces eventually (probably, if we're lucky). Issues such as low wages are now in the public mind. Once Imigratiuon reform becomes a reality, the laws are going to be so pro-immigrant that ultra-conservatives are going to have anxiety attacks.
    I can only hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    There are two separate arguments that shouldn't be conflated. Should immigrants be public charges is largely a different question from whether immigration is a good idea. There is significantly more public support for immigration than there is for generous welfare programs for immigrants.
    'Generous' and 'Welfare' cannot be used together in the same sentence by anyone who's had to experience it, and you're the one who has shifted the goalposts twice in this argument. No one is arguing that tons of people who are completely incapable of working or earning a living and happen to be foreign be brought here by the truckload. I always felt what was meant by "Tired & Poor" is "Hey, you come here and we'll get you set up as contributing members of our society!".

    According to your repeated posts you seem to expect The Left to ship in tons of hopeless drags-on-the-system across our open borders to vote in even more radicals. Yes this is an exaggeration, but considering today's 'norms' I wouldn't be surprised to find out it was 100% true.

  8. #6893
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    What was our welfare system in 1883, when the poem was written? When the tired and poor showed up, they were welcomed. And given shovels.
    There was no Welfare system but the Immigration Act of 1882 included the first federal public charge provision. Any immigrant "‘unable to take care of himself or herself without becoming a public charge' " was excluded from entering the United States by the act. (until then it was mostly the states that had a public charge doctrine) It also imposed a "Head tax" to all immigrants. If an immigrant couldn't pay the head tax or prove that they had the money or a trade that would keep them form being a public charge they were sent back on the boat they came on.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    It didn't exist because we took care of each other. We also didn't get in the way of people coming here and helped them get started on realizing their own personal freedoms.

    1883 Germany passed the first Healthcare bill ... it wasn't until after 1929 that welfare as we know it now was created in the US and other places because people decided to keep their excess instead of helping others.

    So, you want to argue about welfare? It was a basic human thing to do when the poem was written ... it was part of American culture to help others. But now we need a laws to encourage people to not be jerks and help other's in need?

    Kinda sad you need a law to be encouraged to do the right thing and help those in need. Not very American. And not being a good human being to others.
    1920 to 1940 saw the largest spike in deportation/excluded entry of immigrants on grounds of becoming a public charge. Mainly due to the adding social programs such as welfare that immigrants also began to apply for because of hard economic times.

    Actual American immigration policy never really aligned with that poem.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 08-13-2019 at 11:40 AM.
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  9. #6894
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post


    What do you think immigration reform is going to look like, in terms of changes to the number of legal immigrants, citizenship processes for currently undocumented immigrants, and border policy?
    I can't say fro sure, in that I'm not a member of Congress. If I was and I was working on Immigration Reform, I am the type of person to study the Issue first. Get feedback from experts, do research, whatever it takes to get it right.

    What I woudl like to see is Immigration Reform that
    1. Takes the 'Illegal' out of Immigration. Make it so that people coming here don't have to live in fear, or feel like they have to hide in the shadows.
    2. Set it up so that everyone entering the country who wants to stay are Documented. Expand the concept of Documentation so that even non-citizens can live and work here, so long as they don't violate any criminal laws.
    3. Upgrade and better finance the system for in processing new arrivals. The "Ellis Island" solution. Create better centralized system to in-process all new arrivals, do it quickly and humanely, and assign paperwork, including IDs to each new immigrant.
    4. Improve the process of becoming citizens for those who want it.
    5. Expand trade with our Neighboring countries, which can help boost their economies. As well as provide other assistance as needed, including dealing with crime and gangs, in order to raise those countries up and make them places where people want to live. Doing this would decrease Immigration since there would be less need for it.
    6. Possibly other things I can't think of at the moment.

    Of course, keeping crime and drugs and so on out is important, but we have systems in place to deal with it. Providing the needed support to these border agencies is what we need to secure the border against trouble. This includes High-Tech support.
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  10. #6895
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    I can't say fro sure, in that I'm not a member of Congress. If I was and I was working on Immigration Reform, I am the type of person to study the Issue first. Get feedback from experts, do research, whatever it takes to get it right.

    What I woudl like to see is Immigration Reform that
    1. Takes the 'Illegal' out of Immigration. Make it so that people coming here don't have to live in fear, or feel like they have to hide in the shadows.
    2. Set it up so that everyone entering the country who wants to stay are Documented. Expand the concept of Documentation so that even non-citizens can live and work here, so long as they don't violate any criminal laws.
    3. Upgrade and better finance the system for in processing new arrivals. The "Ellis Island" solution. Create better centralized system to in-process all new arrivals, do it quickly and humanely, and assign paperwork, including IDs to each new immigrant.
    4. Improve the process of becoming citizens for those who want it.
    5. Expand trade with our Neighboring countries, which can help boost their economies. As well as provide other assistance as needed, including dealing with crime and gangs, in order to raise those countries up and make them places where people want to live. Doing this would decrease Immigration since there would be less need for it.
    6. Possibly other things I can't think of at the moment.

    Of course, keeping crime and drugs and so on out is important, but we have systems in place to deal with it. Providing the needed support to these border agencies is what we need to secure the border against trouble. This includes High-Tech support.
    One more thing I will suggest - potential immigrants who are requesting asylum due to helping the US military do not count against any limits, and have no limit of their own. Because telling someone who risked their life top help our soldiers shouldn't be told 'all the slots have been filled, you get to stay with people who want to kill you', is disgusting.
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  11. #6896
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    One more thing I will suggest - potential immigrants who are requesting asylum due to helping the US military do not count against any limits, and have no limit of their own. Because telling someone who risked their life top help our soldiers shouldn't be told 'all the slots have been filled, you get to stay with people who want to kill you', is disgusting.
    This is why the process of Immigration reform is not for one person alone to do, but a group effort since many minds come up with the best ideas.
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  12. #6897

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    One more thing I will suggest - potential immigrants who are requesting asylum due to helping the US military do not count against any limits, and have no limit of their own. Because telling someone who risked their life top help our soldiers shouldn't be told 'all the slots have been filled, you get to stay with people who want to kill you', is disgusting.
    And yet, ICE has gone ahead and started trying to deport immigrant veterans. And the Pentagon ain't f***ing pleased none about that. Neither am I, personally, because it is super s***ty.

    Methinks Stephen Miller levels of hatred against minorities would have to be involved.
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  13. #6898
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Can Trump be censured or something....for retweeting a right wing conspiracy tweet dredging linking the Clintons to Epstein's death?
    He'll probably reward himself with the Presidential Medal of Freedom for it, and McConnell will find some other way to honor him.
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  14. #6899
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by worstblogever View Post
    And yet, ICE has gone ahead and started trying to deport immigrant veterans. And the Pentagon ain't f***ing pleased none about that. Neither am I, personally, because it is super s***ty.

    Methinks Stephen Miller levels of hatred against minorities would have to be involved.
    As a veteran myself, it infuriates me that my fellow servicemen and servicewomen are being treated like shit by this administration because they aren’t white. Yeah, this nonsense has Kid Jackboot’s fingerprints all over it.
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  15. #6900
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    Oh good, glad you're willing to talk about this. So, what IS your evidence that journalists at CNN are doing the bidding of corporate sponsors, and that journalists at Washington Post are doing the bidding of Jeff Bezos?
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