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  1. #8176
    What fresh hell is this? ChadH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    But what alternative are you suggesting?

    Should undocumented families get citizenship? Should they be allowed to stay in some sort of second-class status? Should parents and kids be deported together?


    Some policies have bad consequences but remain the least bad option. So we do need a sense of the alternatives in order to determine whether an existing policy could be replaced without getting something worse.

    This is a failing on both sides. Democrats decry Republican immigration policy without being clear about their own plans (IE- What does comprehensive reform mean? What limits should there be on legal immigration?) Republicans kept complaining about Obamacare, but didn't have an alternative they could all support.
    You keep pivoting back to that irrelevant argument. A BIPARTISAN immigration policy was presented to the Trump administration last year and it was rejected. Whatever it outlined is what the Democrats and Republicans crafted together. Please stop insinuating the Democrats haven't given anyone a policy. That was the policy.
    Last edited by ChadH; 09-18-2019 at 07:35 PM.
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  2. #8177
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    I mean, I don't have to be one hundred percent sure of an alternative to know that any which returns sick children to their home countries to ensure they die preventable and excruciating deaths is wrong. There may be consequences for any plan, but I'm pretty sure we're still allowed to say 'murdering children is wrong', or do t hey only count as children when they're still in utero?

  3. #8178
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosa Luxemburg View Post
    That's the reason libertarians want open borders, and that is what would happen if open borders was the beginning and end of how the US dealt with immigration, along with worsening the condition of the places people were coming from.

    The proper approach to open borders is to pay reparations to the countries that the US has devastated and ensure workers won't be exploited, whatever their immigration status. Criminalizing human movement to prevent exploitation is not the answer, and it isn't the reason the US has immigration laws now.
    Criminalizing human movement especially as climate refugees become more and more a thing.

  4. #8179
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosa Luxemburg View Post
    That's the reason libertarians want open borders, and that is what would happen if open borders was the beginning and end of how the US dealt with immigration, along with worsening the condition of the places people were coming from.

    The proper approach to open borders is to pay reparations to the countries that the US has devastated and ensure workers won't be exploited, whatever their immigration status. Criminalizing human movement to prevent exploitation is not the answer, and it isn't the reason the US has immigration laws now.
    We are just going to have to politely agree to disagree there.

    Edit:

    As for "What Libertarians Want...", that's a whole other can of worms.
    Last edited by numberthirty; 09-18-2019 at 07:41 PM.

  5. #8180

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I was asking what policy you would explicitly advocate for.
    .
    One where we don't legally murder immigrants by sending them out of the country where they wouldn't get the healthcare they need to survive.

    Are you jaded enough that this is controversial, Mets, or are you advocating the legal murder of innocent sick people?
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  6. #8181
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    This is getting really troubling. What may he have promised....and to who? I was watching CNN when they mentioned that there were 5 foreign leaders that he spoke to in the alleged time frame. Two of them are Putin and Kim Jong Un

  7. #8182

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    I mean, I don't have to be one hundred percent sure of an alternative to know that any which returns sick children to their home countries to ensure they die preventable and excruciating deaths is wrong. There may be consequences for any plan, but I'm pretty sure we're still allowed to say 'murdering children is wrong', or do t hey only count as children when they're still in utero?
    What is your take on killing kids in utero?

    There is a further distinction between taking active steps to kill someone, and withdrawing aid that you believe to be the responsibility of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    You keep pivoting back to that irrelevant argument. A BIPARTISAN immigration policy was presented to the Trump administration last year and it was rejected. Whatever it outlined is what the Democrats and Republicans crafted together. Please stop insinuating the Democrats haven't given anyone a policy. That was the policy.
    There was a complete policy that Democrats will stick to if they have control of both houses of Congress and the White House?

    I, for one, would be happy if this leads to Pence being President.

    Quote Originally Posted by worstblogever View Post
    One where we don't legally murder immigrants by sending them out of the country where they wouldn't get the healthcare they need to survive.

    Are you jaded enough that this is controversial, Mets, or are you advocating the legal murder of innocent sick people?
    Nope.

    I would imagine there's a solution available, but I want the people proposing it to be willing to own the potential consequences (IE- an increase of sick, needy people coming to the US for healthcare that Democrats claim to be expensive and mediocre.)

  8. #8183

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I would imagine there's a solution available, but I want the people proposing it to be willing to own the potential consequences (IE- an increase of sick, needy people coming to the US for healthcare that Democrats claim to be expensive and mediocre.)
    Typical Republican cowardice. Effectively quoting, "If you give a mouse a cookie..."

    When the question was, "Can we not just take an action that kills these people?" That's it. The question isn't about taking on more, it's just "don't send these people away to die".

    And rather than just admit your party if full of s*** about actually being pro-life, you're trying to pretend there's a slippery slope argument to, "Can we just not legalize the murder of these sick people?"

    A new low has been achieved.
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  9. #8184
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    What is your take on killing kids in utero?
    You know my abortion stance. Zygotes aren't children, Mets. Your party, however, is the one that claims that life is sacred right up until its ejected from the womb -- but we both know Republicans don't really care about them then either.

    There is a further distinction between taking active steps to kill someone, and withdrawing aid that you believe to be the responsibility of others.
    Great message from a Spider-Man mod, there. 'Not our problem!'
    There was a complete policy that Democrats will stick to if they have control of both houses of Congress and the White House?
    There was bipartisian immigration reform and you know it.

    Why am I not surprised you'd like the president to be a guy known best for being so pro-life that he caused an HIV outbreak? But you're in luck: Pence is already running a lot of the policy show.

    I mean, nobody should feel they need to play devil's advocate for the policies being implemented by the white house right now. The devil has enough advocates there already.
    Last edited by Tendrin; 09-19-2019 at 04:38 AM.

  10. #8185
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    What is your take on killing kids in utero?

    There is a further distinction between taking active steps to kill someone, and withdrawing aid that you believe to be the responsibility of others.

    There was a complete policy that Democrats will stick to if they have control of both houses of Congress and the White House?



    I, for one, would be happy if this leads to Pence being President.

    Nope.

    I would imagine there's a solution available, but I want the people proposing it to be willing to own the potential consequences (IE- an increase of sick, needy people coming to the US for healthcare that Democrats claim to be expensive and mediocre.)
    My thought, assuming Pence knows about it and said nothing, did nothing. Didn't even try to stop him from doing, whatever. How would that not lead to Pence being in trouble as well?
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  11. #8186
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    This is getting really troubling. What may he have promised....and to who? I was watching CNN when they mentioned that there were 5 foreign leaders that he spoke to in the alleged time frame. Two of them are Putin and Kim Jong Un
    Two of Trump's personal buddies. This is troubling as hell, and then some. Of course, Moscow Mitch and the Grand Old Pissants in the Senate won't say a damn thing.

    ====================

    Mike Pompeo: Saudi Oil Attack Is An ‘Act Of War’ By Iran

    The U.S. secretary of state said Iran was behind the missile strikes. Saudi officials said they had proof. Then let the Saudis go to war on Iran, leave the U.S. out!

    **********

    Ilhan Omar Says Trump Spreading False 9/11 Tweet About Her Puts Her Life At Risk

    “What is Twitter doing to combat this misinformation?” the congresswoman responded. Short answer? Not a goddamn thing. Trump is Twitter's golden calf and they're not going to derail that gravy train.

    **********

    NY Times Reporters Say Kavanaugh Asked Them To Lie In Exchange For An Interview

    Reporters Robin Pogrebin and Kate Kelly said that Justice Brett Kavanaugh agreed to speak to them as long as they publicly said he declined the interview. And this shitstain sits on SCOTUS? Incredible!

    **********

    The Military Has Spent $184,000 At Trump’s Scottish Golf Resort In 2 Years

    It remains unclear whether the military exceeded its own limits on lodging expenses to put service members up in the president’s hotel. Let's hear it for presidential grifting!

    **********

    Sean Hannity Offers Up Some Sketchy Legal Advice To Donald Trump’s Aides

    The Fox News host issued some tips for how Trump’s allies can avoid perjuring themselves. Oh, this is hilarious!
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  12. #8187
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Looks like Trump is showing Bibi the door....

    ‘Our relations are with Israel’: Trump appears to give embattled Netanyahu the cold shoulder

    President Trump appeared to distance himself from embattled Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Wednesday, declining to offer either encouragement or praise to his most enthusiastically loyal foreign ally now that he faces potential electoral defeat.

    Speaking a day after Israeli elections that at best leave Netanyahu weakened, Trump seemed cool to the Israeli conservative who has touted his ideological lockstep with Trump as a chief reelection credential.

    Trump said he had not spoken to Netanyahu, a man he has described as a close friend. He then noted that the election is close while playing down Netanyahu’s importance to the alliance between the United States and Israel.

    “Our relations are with Israel, so we’ll see what happens,” Trump told reporters traveling with him in California.

    Netanyahu failed to win a clear majority in national elections Tuesday that the long-serving conservative leader had hoped would give him a strong mandate for another term and armor against a looming corruption case.

    During his presidency, Trump has tightly embraced Netanyahu and his hawkish views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, frequently winning praise from the prime minister for such things as moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem and announcing that the United States would recognize Israeli sovereignty over the Golan Heights. But his comments Wednesday underscored Trump’s penchant for separating himself from political allies once they become weakened or could serve as a liability to him.

    “Ice cold,” Brookings Institution Middle East specialist Tamara Cofman Wittes observed on Twitter.
    **********

    Johnny Warhawk slams Trump....just not in public:

    Bolton unloads on Trump’s foreign policy behind closed doors

    John Bolton, President Donald Trump’s fired national security adviser, harshly criticized Trump’s foreign policy on Wednesday at a private lunch, saying that inviting the Taliban to Camp David sent a “terrible signal” and that it was “disrespectful” to the victims of 9/11 because the Taliban had harbored al Qaeda.

    Bolton also said that any negotiations with North Korea and Iran were “doomed to failure,” according to two attendees.

    All the North Koreans and Iranians want to do is negotiate for relief from sanctions to support their economies, said Bolton, who was speaking before guests invited by the Gatestone Institute, a conservative think tank.

    “He ripped Trump, without using his name, several times,” said one attendee. Bolton didn't immediately respond to a request for comment.

    Bolton also said more than once that Trump’s failure to respond to the Iranian attack on an American drone earlier this summer set the stage for the Islamic Republic’s aggression in recent months.
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  13. #8188
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    Barr praised 2017 book that claims colleges unfairly went after male students accused of sexual assault

    WASHINGTON — Before being nominated by President Donald Trump to be attorney general, William Barr strongly endorsed a 2017 book accusing colleges and universities of unfairly punishing male students accused of rape.

    Barr's praise for "Campus Rape Frenzy: The Attack on Due Process at America's Universities" by K.C. Johnson and Stuart Taylor, is posted on the book's Amazon.com page. But during his confirmation hearings before the Senate Judiciary Committee in January, Barr was not questioned about the blurb, which suggested men are often railroaded by a politically correct campus "mob."

    In the blurb, Barr praises the book for examining multiple cases where, as he described, "Male students are sacrificed to the mob, with academic leaders happily serving as the hangmen."

    Barr's professed skepticism about some campus sexual assault claims surfaced after Trump's call this week for the Justice Department to "rescue" Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh, after The New York Times published an excerpt of a new book detailing asexual assault allegation against Kavanaugh while a student at Yale that he had previously denied. The book also includes information about a new allegation.
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  14. #8189
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Can't say I'm surprised at this revelation about Droopy Dog Barr. This makes me wonder: if Barr had a daughter in college and, god forbid, she had been assaulted, would he have sided with the university over his flesh and blood?
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  15. #8190
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    Jimmy Carter wants an age limit for the presidency -- and he may have a point

    (CNN)Former President Jimmy Carter took a shot at presidential candidates Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders when he said on Tuesday that he couldn't have handled the presidency at the age of 80. Speaking at the Carter Center, the former President said he hopes "there's an age limit" to the job.

    "If I were just 80 years old, if I was 15 years younger, I don't believe I could undertake the duties I experienced when I was President," Carter said.

    Though Democratic candidates in the 2020 primary have sometimes tiptoed around discussing age, it becomes a legitimate question when Biden, 76, seems to struggle for his words, or makes outdated references like suggesting that black parents should turn on their record players to help improve their children's education. "Is Joe Biden 'Too Old?'" ran an Atlantic headline this July. The question has come up with President Donald Trump as well; the President's frequent verbal salads are often linked to concerns about his mental fitness.

    Should old age matter in a president? After all, there is reason to be skeptical of the critics, especially if we think that 80 is the new 60. We have had presidents who were considered old at the time but nonetheless found success in the job. Ronald Reagan, who was 69 when he took office, was in his seventies when he negotiated a historic agreement with the Soviet Union and a series of bipartisan agreements, including on immigration and tax reform.
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