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  1. #2551
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post


    Yet I got a month long ban for calling somebody a fairy tale telling grandpa.
    I seem to remember you running afoul of Godwin's Law when that happened. But the poster is question has already received the proper response for such garbage posting, as has the thread he started. It just can't happen instantly since the mods don't live online.
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  2. #2552

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    Quote Originally Posted by SquirrelMan View Post
    Do you have a few examples in how Hillary C. ran to the right in her 2016 campaign so those things can be avoided in the future?

    Just to make sure.
    Hillary Clinton ran on the most progressive major-party platform in American political history.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.b59e14dce343

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/31/o...l?mcubz=3&_r=0

    One take on her loss is that moderates weren't given enough of a reason to vote for her. They saw her agenda, and enough of them went with the deeply flawed Republican.

  3. #2553
    Fighting Injustice on CBR SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    I seem to remember you running afoul of Godwin's Law when that happened. But the poster is question has already received the proper response for such garbage posting, as has the thread he started. It just can't happen instantly since the mods don't live online.
    To be fair I kinda wish they had kept it up. That way folks could see it and realize what political party he supports. That way folks could say , oh he supports the party mocking a relative of someone who died. Oh...that party.
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  4. #2554
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Hillary Clinton ran on the most progressive major-party platform in American political history.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.b59e14dce343

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/31/o...l?mcubz=3&_r=0

    One take on her loss is that moderates weren't given enough of a reason to vote for her. They saw her agenda, and enough of them went with the deeply flawed Republican.
    Clinton is deeply mistrusted by the public. Much of it is that she was the target of every looney conspiracy theory and overblown controversy that happened since Bill ran for PotUS decades ago, and some of it is how well what she and those around her did managed to play into that same narrative.

    I know 'but her emails' is a punchline, but it did perfectly play into the narrative the Republicans have been defining her with since the 1990's, even though much of really was overblown. Again, the DNC doing what it could to rig the primary was another unforced error, especially since it didn't need to be done. The only purpose it served was to damage her in the general election.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  5. #2555
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    Hong Kong March: Vast Protest of Extradition Bill Shows Fear of Eroding Freedoms

    HONG KONG — Hundreds of thousands of people filled the sweltering streets of Hong Kong on Sunday in an immense protest against a government plan to allow extraditions to mainland China that culminated after midnight in clashes with the police.

    The mass demonstration was one of the largest in the city’s history and a stunning display of rising fear and anger over the erosion of the civil liberties that have long set this former British colony apart from the rest of the country. Organizers said they counted more than one million on the streets, or nearly one in seven Hong Kong residents.

    Still, experts said the immense turnout was unlikely to sway Hong Kong officials, who confirmed that a second legislative reading of the bill would proceed as scheduled on Wednesday.

    The protest recalled the pro-democracy Umbrella Movement five years ago, which paralyzed several of the city’s main commercial districts but failed to persuade the government to make any concessions. Since then, China’s ruling Communist Party has been gradually exerting more influence over Hong Kong.
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  6. #2556
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post

    One take on her loss is that moderates weren't given enough of a reason to vote for her. They saw her agenda, and enough of them went with the deeply flawed Republican.
    You mean the loss where the majority of voters voted for her and the Russians interfered. The loss where voter suppression was rampant in key States? That loss?

    But though the platform was very progressive, she campaigned as a moderate Democrat, which is what she is.
    Last edited by Kirby101; 06-09-2019 at 04:11 PM.
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  7. #2557
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    You mean the loss where the majority of voters voted for her and the Russians interfered. The loss where voter suppression was rampant in key States? That loss?

    But thought the platform was very progressive, she campaigned as a moderate Democrat, which is what she is.
    People need to accept the reality that a United States Presidential election is not(and, by the next Presidential elections, likely will not) decided by popular vote totals.

    Since HRC herself was talking about that said system was one whose merits Trump should accept if he should lose, it makes zero sense to go back to that particular point.

    If a football game is won on point totals, you need to realize that focusing on you yardage totals is foolish. That reality needs to be internalized yesterday.

  8. #2558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    The Democrats are at a disadvantage by having a far more diverse party. they have to appeal to people demanding civil rights, gay rights, environmental protection, union protection, etc. they also have to try to win over the undecided blue collar voters. Republicans only have to focus on big business, anti-abortion/religious right, and people who want things to be “unPC” i.e. people who are mad they can’t be openly racist and sexist assholes in public.

    But we are operating in a broken system in which a handful of swing states get to decide who becomes president. So basically which candidate has the best chance of beating Trump in Ohio, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania.
    The Democrats have a habit of treating what should be their core constituencies as a captive audience, and ignoring their concerns in favor of trying to placate swing voters. As the logic goes, there's no need to pander to black or Latino voters because there's no way they could possibly vote Republican, so it's better to expend that political capital elsewhere. Republicans, on the other hand, just double down on the most extreme version of their policies and keep their base loyal and turning out to the polls. Ironically, this actually ends up doing a much better job of attracting undecided voters, because these are exactly the types of people who value displays of strength and unity more than actual policy considerations.

    Hillary would have easily won all of those states in 2016 if all of the people who leaned her way had actually voted, but a lot of them figured she was going to win big anyway and either stayed home in protest or just couldn't be bothered to show up. The key for 2020 is to focus on those voters, not those quasi-Republicans who are all in favor of free healthcare and infrastructure spending, but aren't too keen on immigrants, the environment, LGBT rights, or "PC culture."

  9. #2559
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    People need to accept the reality that a United States Presidential election is not(and, by the next Presidential elections, likely will not) decided by popular vote totals.

    Since HRC herself was talking about that said system was one whose merits Trump should accept if he should lose, it makes zero sense to go back to that particular point.

    If a football game is won on point totals, you need to realize that focusing on you yardage totals is foolish. That reality needs to be internalized yesterday.
    I like that. Another sports analogy would be the best-of-seven series that baseball, basketball and hockey use for their championships. You have to focus on winning four games, not on scoring the most points over all seven games. You can win three games by blowouts, but your opponent can beat you by winning four close games, even though you scored more points over the course of the series.

  10. #2560
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    The key for 2020 is to focus on those voters, not those quasi-Republicans who are all in favor of free healthcare and infrastructure spending, but aren't too keen on immigrants, the environment, LGBT rights, or "PC culture."
    Or you could just make sure that the voting rights of "minorities" are protected -- and encouraged by ease of voting -- which would address the Democratic turnout issue a lot more directly.

    And would likewise ensure domination at the polls going forward.

    It's not "pandering" if "minorities" are the real core constituency, since they (we) are the ones helping to put the Democrats in office to begin with nearly every election -- Democrats can't disregard the needs of black people and latinos and then expect to win based on high turnout, especially when those are the votes that often place candidates (like Obama) firmly in the "win" category.

    More importantly, it's the right thing to do if we want America to be a real democracy.

    One can only imagine how different history would be if Florida hadn't done such a good job of purging African-American votes back when Bush Jr was elected -- you'd think that alone would have been a serious wake-up call but here we are dealing with the exact same issue today, but even worse due to the virtual repeal of the Voting Rights Act.

    Edit: Not saying they can get this done by 2020 but it definitely should be a focus going forward, especially since "minority" voter disenfranchisement is one of the GOP's staple tactics.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 06-09-2019 at 05:59 PM.

  11. #2561

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    You mean the loss where the majority of voters voted for her and the Russians interfered. The loss where voter suppression was rampant in key States? That loss?

    But though the platform was very progressive, she campaigned as a moderate Democrat, which is what she is.
    I was pretty careful not to claim that Trump had more votes overall than Hillary. That said, the existence of the electoral college was not an obscure secret, the majority of the voters still went with someone other than Hillary, and she had the advantage of running against the least-popular general election candidate in American political history after a recording came out in which he bragged about grabbing women by the pussy. There's really no excuse for the loss.

    On the progressive VS moderate question, a progressive platform does make it difficult for someone to appeal to voters who want reassurances that the candidate is a moderate Democrat. There might also be some disagreement about what defines a moderate Democrat, as opposed to a standard Democrat and a far-left Democrat, and how Hillary Clinton demonstrated that that would be the right category for her.

  12. #2562
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Or you could just make sure that the voting rights of "minorities" are protected -- and encouraged by ease of voting -- which would address the Democratic turnout issue a lot more directly.

    And would likewise ensure domination at the polls going forward.

    It's not "pandering" if "minorities" are the real core constituency, since they (we) are the ones helping to put the Democrats in office to begin with nearly every election -- Democrats can't disregard the needs of black people and latinos and then expect to win based on high turnout, especially when those are the votes that often place candidates (like Obama) firmly in the "win" category.

    More importantly, it's the right thing to do if we want America to be a real democracy.

    One can only imagine how different history would be if Florida hadn't done such a good job of purging African-American votes back when Bush Jr was elected -- you'd think that alone would have been a serious wake-up call but here we are dealing with the exact same issue today, but even worse due to the virtual repeal of the Voting Rights Act.

    Edit: Not saying they can get this done by 2020 but it definitely should be a focus going forward, especially since "minority" voter disenfranchisement is one of the GOP's staple tactics.
    We're in agreement on this, which is why I don't seem to understand why you want to support Biden. His entire pitch to black voters is that he was Obama's VP, he's not going to stick his neck out to help you or anyone else other than his base of middle class suburban white folks.

  13. #2563
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    We're in agreement on this, which is why I don't seem to understand why you want to support Biden. His entire pitch to black voters is that he was Obama's VP, he's not going to stick his neck out to help you or anyone else other than his base of middle class suburban white folks.
    Never said I support Biden -- said I'll decide after the debates and support the eventual nominee against Trump, regardless.

    If you want a better perspective on why some black voters might support Biden, though, it's not rocket science -- whether you accept it or not, most people (including black voters) see Biden as the best -- and most pragmatic -- option against Trump.

    The article also points out that once Obama showed he could win in Iowa, many black voters shifted support to him from Hillary -- it's important to note, however, that both were more "centrist" than "progressive".

    -----
    "For Many Black Voters, Beating ‘The Donald’ in 2020 Trumps Race, Gender or More Progressive Concerns"

    "When it comes to looking ahead to the 2020 presidential election, many black voters aren’t focused on race, gender or who can out-progessive who. They’re focused on ousting Donald Trump from the White House.

    That’s according to the Los Angeles Times, which notes that while the more progressive nature and strong black base of the Democratic Party could have one thinking the next Democratic nominee will be a person of color or a woman, many black voters are setting aside thoughts of racial or gender pride to focus on who can best beat Trump at the polls.

    “They are so sick and tired of being sick and tired of Trump, there’s this almost unconscious feeling they’re going to go with the candidate that is more likely to beat him,” Ron Lester, a Washington pollster who studies the attitudes of black voters, told the Times.

    For many, Lester added, “that is probably a white male,” the Times reports, “given their deep-seated belief ‘that America is still a very racist place and a very misogynistic place and that a candidate who doesn’t get any white votes is probably going to lose.’”

    And that has political watchers giving centrist (read: politically safe) white men like former Vice President Joe Biden the edge. Some black women voters the Times spoke with seemed to back up this assumption.

    “My pragmatic side says that the person that can win this election is someone more in the middle, that’s not going to come out for [repealing] the death penalty and reparations,” said Faya Touré, a 74-year-old veteran civil rights activist in Selma, Ala. “I would love a candidate that would do that. But I don’t think that candidate’s going to win this election.”

    https://www.theroot.com/for-many-bla...tru-1835315599
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 06-09-2019 at 07:08 PM.

  14. #2564
    What fresh hell is this? ChadH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Even if people dont like Biden he'll be a good palate cleanser after Trump.
    Like a warm skunky beer after eating a dog turd.
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  15. #2565
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Even if people dont like Biden he'll be a good palate cleanser after Trump.
    If he wins which I don’t think he will

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