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  1. #1561
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    "Trump once said women should be punished for abortion. Now, he's making it happen"

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...for-abortion-t

    ----
    "Republicans taking Trump's advice to punish women for abortion"

    Republicans in Georgia just enacted legislation that would do exactly as Trump suggested on the campaign trail in 2016 - punish women for having an abortion.

    https://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/r...on-59344965791
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 05-15-2019 at 03:34 PM.

  2. #1562
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Nope: if you are comfortable with the behavior of many "Christian" Republicans -- both then and at this point in history -- then I doubt anything said here will sway your opinion from said dogma.


    As for your question -- yes, I make mistakes, but I don't try to tell women they can't have abortions, much less seek to make it criminal to do so.
    So Iím assuming you walked completely away from your faith?

    I never said I was ok with anythingÖpast or present. I donít support everything the republican party does and I did not vote for TrumpÖIím not even a republican. I have never liked Trump to be honest. I donít completely understand what youíre trying to point out to me.

    People are peopleÖ.100% damaged and imperfect. Christians have always been imperfect just like everyone else. Christians have done both terrible and good throughout history. That is humanity and thatís the whole point of the Christian faith. Iím not blind to the bad things that have happened but Iím not going to walk away from what I believe to be true because people have done bad things.

    You know the Christians that I talk to generally donít like Trump but they donít like the direction of the democrat party either. But they see someone who will push back and thatís whatís feeding Trumps popularity. Trump supporters generally are not a bunch of racist skin heads, they are people who want to push back against the left that has taken over the decorate party. You can believe that or not but I talk to these people all the time.

  3. #1563
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    As we saw with Katrina in New Orleans and Maria in Puerto Rico, the GOP don't care when minorities die.
    Really? People died in those areas so it has to be because of race?

  4. #1564
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Nope: if you are comfortable with the behavior of many "Christian" Republicans -- both then and at this point in history -- then I doubt anything said here will sway your opinion from said dogma.

    As for your question -- yes, I make mistakes, but I don't try to tell women they can't have abortions, much less seek to make it criminal to do so.
    If you saw an unborn child as a human being then abortion would be murder. In such a case you would stop someone from having one and you would be more open to legal punishment because again it would be murder. This is how a lot of us see it. Itís not about power over or punishing females but about not destroying life that we consider to be a human being.

    Two totally different world views but ultimately you see murder as wrong (Iím assuming) and so do we.

  5. #1565

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohnooze View Post
    Really? People died in those areas so it has to be because of race?
    Look up Roland j Bourgeois some time. He lived where my father grew up. Those particular areas of Louisiana have an exaggerated race problem. But the entire state has a problematic history of gentrification and klan-led violence. I can't speak to Puerto Rico's issues. I don't even attribute it to the Republican Party. Although it is currently the party that attracts white supremacists.
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  6. #1566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohnooze View Post
    So I’m assuming you walked completely away from your faith?
    Better to ask whether the much of the "Christian faith" has walked away from Jesus.

    With regards to abortion itself, what I "see" doesn't matter in this situation -- I'm not the one who has to bear and provide for the child once it's born, so it's not my place to make that decision for others.

    You might see it differently, which is your right, but it's not your right -- or anyone else's for that matter -- to dictate to others that they have to bear a child, especially if you aren't going to personally take care of it once it has been born.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 05-15-2019 at 04:16 PM.

  7. #1567
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Better to ask whether the much of the "faith" has walked away from Jesus.

    With regards to abortion itself, what I "see" doesn't matter in this situation -- I'm not the one who has to bear and take care of the child once it's born, so it's not my place to make that decision for others.

    You might see it differently, which is your right, but it's not your right -- or anyone else's for that matter -- to dictate to others that they have to bear a child, especially if you aren't going to personally take care of it once it has been born.
    No one says you have to raise the child though. Again the big difference is how we view the unborn. If it's human then abortion is murder and I'm assuming you believe murder is wrong.

  8. #1568
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    [Deleted -- double post.]
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 05-15-2019 at 04:44 PM.

  9. #1569
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohnooze View Post
    No one says you have to raise the child though. Again the big difference is how we view the unborn. If it's human then abortion is murder and I'm assuming you believe murder is wrong.
    My views on life are much more existential, but with regards to this discussion, I think the mother has the right to choose since it's her body, and that the laws we have now set fair restrictions on said choice.

    I'll add that I don't see it as murder as I don't see it as formed consciousness -- just potential for consciousness -- but that's my own personal view, which should not be forced on others who might not see it the same way.

    Religious people have a bad habit of pushing their views on others and then using those views to justify horrendous behavior -- you do as you will, but I prefer not to walk down that road.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 05-15-2019 at 04:49 PM.

  10. #1570
    Astonishing Member Kusanagi's Avatar
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    This is the problem with abortion debates, and why it will be with us for the forseeable future unless we get some amazing advancements in medical science.

    When does human life begin, is more philosophical than objective, and any argument therein thus become circular. Unlike racial equality, gender equality, or equality for the lbgtq there's not generational shift that will see this debate lesson over time.

    So with that in mind, and looking toward the future, really what's the best believable outcome of these laws for Pro Lifers?

    If protections are removed and it's a state by state basis, are we going to have abortion tourism to look forward to? Where people living in red states visit blue states to get it done? Btw if you think that description sounds crass, it's an accepted fact of life for the Northern Irish who visit the rest of Great Britain. Are we really going to see young women put on trial for murder after she buys pills online to do the job herself?

    If abortion's federally made illegal, do they really expect abortions to stop? How many young women have their lives completely taken from them? All I see now, especially if nothing is done on the other fronts of this debate (education/contraception etc) is taking a US where a woman can have an abortion and have a life afterward, to where a woman has an abortion and her future is forfeit.
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  11. #1571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kusanagi View Post
    If protections are removed and it's a state by state basis, are we going to have abortion tourism to look forward to? Where people living in red states visit blue states to get it done?
    As always, the wealthy -- like Trump -- will be the ones above the law.

    -----
    "Alabama governor signs controversial abortion ban bill into law"

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...l-law-n1006211

  12. #1572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohnooze View Post
    If you saw an unborn child as a human being then abortion would be murder. In such a case you would stop someone from having one and you would be more open to legal punishment because again it would be murder. This is how a lot of us see it. It’s not about power over or punishing females but about not destroying life that we consider to be a human being.

    Two totally different world views but ultimately you see murder as wrong (I’m assuming) and so do we.
    It’s sad, and infuriating that people obsess over fetuses, but don’t care nearly as much about kids who are poor, sick, abused, malnourished and undereducated. Where’s the concern for them? Like the late George Carlin was famous for saying, “If you’re pre-born, you’re fine, if you’re preschool, you’re fucked”. My views on this matter are plain and simple: what a woman does with her body is nobody’s goddamn business but hers and her doctor, meanwhile, hypocritical Republicans who bleat endlessly about keeping government out of the lives of the people can’t interfere enough when it comes to denying a woman’s right to choose.
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  13. #1573
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    The funny thing is that the Bible which evangelicals love to praise, but apparently don't much like reading, actually gives instructions on how to perform an abortion, though as always their understanding of science and medicine is a bit suspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Numbers 5:27-31
    And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled; Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law. Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.
    Also, I'm no expert on the text but I'm not seeing any kind of equivalent punishment for an unfaithful husband.

  14. #1574
    Extraordinary Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kusanagi View Post
    This is the problem with abortion debates, and why it will be with us for the forseeable future unless we get some amazing advancements in medical science.

    When does human life begin, is more philosophical than objective, and any argument therein thus become circular. Unlike racial equality, gender equality, or equality for the lbgtq there's not generational shift that will see this debate lesson over time.

    So with that in mind, and looking toward the future, really what's the best believable outcome of these laws for Pro Lifers?

    If protections are removed and it's a state by state basis, are we going to have abortion tourism to look forward to? Where people living in red states visit blue states to get it done? Btw if you think that description sounds crass, it's an accepted fact of life for the Northern Irish who visit the rest of Great Britain. Are we really going to see young women put on trial for murder after she buys pills online to do the job herself?

    If abortion's federally made illegal, do they really expect abortions to stop? How many young women have their lives completely taken from them? All I see now, especially if nothing is done on the other fronts of this debate (education/contraception etc) is taking a US where a woman can have an abortion and have a life afterward, to where a woman has an abortion and her future is forfeit.
    The laws being passed make it a crime to seek an abortion out of state.
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  15. #1575
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Making abortions illegl doesn't reduce the numbers. It just makes it more dangerous for women. Acess to birth control, and real sex education (not the abstinance bullshit) reduces abortion.
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