All Purpose News and Politics Thread Part IV: The Center Cannot Hold

[Malvolio]

You know that and we here know that but between Fox News and Trump himself, they make the most noise about their spin on it. It's like they's using cannons vs the Dems using a squirt gun. They're not successfully calling out the GOP deception. Trump is always saying that Mueller and his mythical "18 angry Democrats" were conspiring with the Deep State or whatever nonsense he comes up with on any given day. They have to figure out a way to shine a light on this and send the cockroaches scurrying. Just think how many millions more there are like that woman at the Rep. Amash town meeting that said she thought the Mueller report completely cleared Trump, because people saw Toady AG Barr say it does. The Dems have to find a stronger platform to counter the lies. This is why I think Bill Maher is on the right track by telling the Democrats to go on Fox News. Elizabeth Warren or any other candidate and spokesman should go on there and and call them out on their lies.

But there's a problem with that. You can have a great town hall on FOX News like Pete Buttigieg just had or you can have a fair interview with Chris Wallace on FOX News Sunday, but on Monday morning, FOX and Friends will show an edited version of that town hall, or on Monday night, Sean Hannity or Laura Ingraham will show an edited version of the FOX News Sunday interview to make you look foolish or "Un-American."

[aja_christopher]

"El Paso Immigration Center Is Dangerously Overcrowded, Inspector General Warns"

"Severe overcrowding at an immigration facility in El Paso presents an immediate risk to the health and safety of hundreds of migrants being held there, with some of those detained standing on top of toilets in crowded rooms just to find air to breathe, a federal watchdog said this week.

In a report issued Thursday in which it calls for immediate action, the United States Department of Homeland Security’s Office of Inspector General detailed several striking observations about the conditions at the El Paso Del Norte immigration processing center gathered during unannounced inspections in early May.

Despite federal standards saying that people should generally not be detained for more than 72 hours, some people were held in “standing room only” cells for weeks, the report said. Investigators found that there was limited access to showers and clean clothes, the report said. Some people were “wearing soiled clothing for days or weeks,” the report said.

Investigators found 155 people in a cell that was supposed to hold 35, and 41 people in a cell that was supposed to hold eight. Nine hundred people were being held at the center on one day in May — far exceeding its capacity of 125.

“We are concerned that the overcrowding and prolonged detention represent an immediate risk to the health and safety not just of the detainees, but also D.H.S. agents and officers,” the report said.

The Department of Homeland Security declined to comment on the findings on Friday night."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/31/u...rcrowding.html

[InformationGeek]

Brown noser alert.

WATCH: Acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney says moving a Navy ship out of sight from the president was "not an unreasonable thing to do." #MTP #IfItsSunday

Mulvaney: "The president's feelings towards the former senator are well known."

[JCAll]

The knowledge that the breakdown will be really bad helps avoid the situation.

Does it though? Is that something people know, is that knowledge generally shared? Because I always always hear about how good it is that people can overthrow the government, either in context of the 2nd amendment or just in normal conversation. How often do people really talk about how bad thing would be before and after the government went down?

[PaulBullion]

Does it though? Is that something people know, is that knowledge generally shared? Because I always always hear about how good it is that people can overthrow the government, either in context of the 2nd amendment or just in normal conversation. How often do people really talk about how bad thing would be before and after the government went down?

Often enough for GOP supporters to have it both ways, as usual.

[Gray Lensman]

Adam Schiff spells out exactly why Democratic leadership isn't pushing for impeachment. Spoiler alert: it involves the phrase "Cult of Trump."

[BruceWayneJr.]

The excuses for not impeaching the ************ are getting weaker and weaker.

[Tami]

Adam Schiff spells out exactly why Democratic leadership isn't pushing for impeachment. Spoiler alert: it involves the phrase "Cult of Trump."

My instincts say that he's thinking this backwards. It is because Trump has a cult that you have to pull out the sword of impeachment. Otherwise the cult will get stronger, and bigger.

[Gray Lensman]

My instincts say that he's thinking this backwards. It is because Trump has a cult that you have to pull out the sword of impeachment. Otherwise the cult will get stronger, and bigger.

I can understand both ways of thinking - although right now, the Senate has already said they are going to consider it a partisan attack and move to exonerate as soon as they can manage. You need to win over enough voters to make those guys care enough about keeping their jobs to actually do those jobs.

[Tami]

I can understand both ways of thinking - although right now, the Senate has already said they are going to consider it a partisan attack and move to exonerate as soon as they can manage. You need to win over enough voters to make those guys care enough about keeping their jobs to actually do those jobs.

It would help, but I can't imagine it happening. Like with any cult, they aren't thinking clearly. Republicans in Congress act like Suicide Bombers or Kamikaze Pilots who willing throw their lives away for a 'higher purpose', though instead of lives it's their careers. They believe that they will be rewarded, and ignore the fact that many of those associated with Trump have been convicted of crimes and sent to prison.

In other words, the only way to break the cult is to take down the cult leader, Trump. If Democrats want to win and win big, those in Congress need to make sure that every American knows the truth, knows all the facts. Otherwise, they will continue to vote blindly as they usually do.

[Mister Mets]

6 million Jews died in the Holocaust and people are bringing up Hitler's regime with the way trump is treating Hispanic immigrant.

If that's their argument, they have to explicitly make it. So we can show why they're staggeringly wrong, and why it hurts their side when they make bad arguments.

I brought it up to point out your double standard in saying Shapiro should be judged one way (based on word and action) and Democrats should be judged another (based on biased "inference").

You started claiming I was "dodging" so I decided to point out that you're the one who frequently "dodges" the problems within your party -- I even provided a list so you could see the difference between "inference" and "fact".

My "question" was never asking why anyone would consider immigration is a serious issue because I think it is a serious issue -- I just don't think separating families is the answer, nor do I care about "limiting principles" since the Democrats have already proven they can govern responsibly without them.

At this point, it's obvious that we can't say the same for the Republican party.

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"MARK 10:13-16 And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them."

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"4th migrant child dies in U.S. custody since December"

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/...since-december

We've yet to establish that the deaths of migrant children are the result of US policy.

I've explained the difference between one commentator and a political party. I'll note that Shapiro has explicitly advocated against white supremacism and gives concrete details on what should happen (IE- he believes it is a good thing that the South Carolina church shooter is in jail) whereas Democrats do not typically give concrete answers on one of the most important policy questions: What should be the limiting principle to legal immigration?

And it is probably the most important question on immigration. It is much more important than the question of what we do with undocumented immigrants since the pool of people affected will be greater.

You have brought up the open borders thing four different times. Kirby101 was the one who suggested that legal immigration isn't a serious topic by criticizing me for taking it seriously.

Does it though? Is that something people know, is that knowledge generally shared? Because I always always hear about how good it is that people can overthrow the government, either in context of the 2nd amendment or just in normal conversation. How often do people really talk about how bad thing would be before and after the government went down?

You may be conflating two different arguments (Is it a good thing that the people have the weapons to fight back against a tyranny? What will be the political ramifications of the collapse of a tyrannical government?)

Is there anyone serious saying that a violent dismantling of the US government won't be bad?

[aja_christopher]

We've yet to establish that the deaths of migrant children are the result of US policy.

Is that really the only thing you see that might possibly be wrong with that whole scenario?

Still looking for "plausible deniability" -- even in this situation?

Yeah, we're done here -- you can try to talk around your party's actions -- separating children from their families -- but you're not fooling anyone.

[Malvolio]

Brown noser alert.

But the naval ship wasn't even named for Senator John McCain. It was named for his grandfather, a Navy Admiral. Of course, that fine difference is probably lost on Donnie Three-Times.

[Malvolio]

I can understand both ways of thinking - although right now, the Senate has already said they are going to consider it a partisan attack and move to exonerate as soon as they can manage. You need to win over enough voters to make those guys care enough about keeping their jobs to actually do those jobs.

This. If Trump is impeached, but the Senate votes to acquit before the 2020 election, Trump supporters will use that as an excuse to vote for him. "Yeah, they showed a lot of evidence, but he beat the rap, so it's all fake news!"

[PwrdOn]

This. If Trump is impeached, but the Senate votes to acquit before the 2020 election, Trump supporters will use that as an excuse to vote for him. "Yeah, they showed a lot of evidence, but he beat the rap, so it's all fake news!"

His supporters already think that though, so what's the harm in putting forth a public spectacle that will only further highlight his incompetence and immaturity? It'd be fine if the House Democrats were slow playing the impeachment because they had some ace up their sleeve that they're waiting for a critical moment to play, but I as far as I can tell that isn't the case at all. Instead they just want us to just wait it out and see what happens in 2020 with this uninspiring group of candidates, and that just isn't looking very favorable right now.

There's a lot to unpack here.

One argument is that recent changes in technology have made it so that we don't need as much low-skilled labor as the country previously absorbed. Our lifestyles are supported by automation and overseas labor.

Anyone who likes a minimum wage is probably going to be against the idea of bringing in immigrants to work at a lower-wage. Rigorous enforcement of the minimum wage (which can be easier when most of the immigrants are able to come in legally) will keep the salaries of the new immigrants higher, with the exception of those who won't be able to get jobs, because companies don't find their services worth the minimum wage.

It's easier to travel than ever before, so there are less barriers for getting to the United States. As a result, with anything close to open borders, you could have larger numbers than we've ever had before.

Automation doesn't really affect the jobs that illegal immigrants do, because it's not the kind of work that can be easily automated. If you can think of a way to build a fruit picking machine that doesn't squash half of the fruits in the process, I'd love to know.

Also your point about the minimum wage makes no sense, if we set a high minimum wage and strictly enforced it, then we wouldn't have to worry about immigration driving down wages, unless you think that immigrants would give up the chance to come in legally just so they could go work under the table for $2 an hour. And if some immigrants can't find good paying jobs, they will have less incentive to come in the first place, I thought that this is what you wanted.

And once again, what's so scary about a large number of immigrants coming in? It's worth remembering that as an American, borders are practically all open to you and you have opportunities to live and work wherever you want, often with much better pay than what locals can get, even doing very basic work like teaching English or something. If any of these countries suddenly decided to start deporting all Americans and banning further entry, you'd be justifiably pissed. But this is the reality that the majority of the world's population has to deal with, for no good reason really, so why continue doing it this way?