All Purpose News and Politics Thread Part IV: The Center Cannot Hold

[Theleviathan]

Joe was all over news channels while I was at the gym. Good god, talk about a clusterfuck, pining for the old days of partisan cooperation which ended when years and years ago and will NEVER come back. Biden is so out of touch, it’s frightening, and yet, I doubt today’s dumpster fire will have a negative impact on Joe’s polling numbers.

We'd have to see a major change in the parties, particularly the Republicans, but I wouldn't say never.

I believe the best policies are crafted by good bi-partisan, well-intentioned people. Of course, one party is devoid of good intentions, but I don't think it will always be this way. Maybe I have too much optimism.

[Jack Dracula]

From the perspective of the parents, it's understandable why they want to bring their kids to the US. But it isn't our current policy to take everyone.

It's safe to say that any proposed framework for a deal isn't reflective of what the Democrats would do if they didn't have to worry about a Republican-controlled Senate or the Republican President. They still haven't presented a limiting principle on legal immigration to the voters.

Tacit approval.
You're opining about what you imagine Democrats would do and how bad it would be while turning a blind eye to the abuse of children that is currently going on when Republicans actually have a greater measure of control. Perhaps you should instead wonder about what the GOP would do if they had no Democratic party or public to hold them in check.

[Mister Mets]

That question has nothing to do with your party's reprehensible treatment of immigrants -- and other minorities -- which is the issue at hand.

Not semantics, not limiting principles, but basic human decency.

It's important to maintain perspective. America, even under Trump, treats immigrants better than most other countries do.

So the argument about basic human decency neglects the policies of the other humans.

I disagree that the only issue at hand is how one party treats immigrants or minorities (the state of minorities is an overlapping but different argument). If a prominent Democratic member of Congress uses Holocaust analogies to describe detention centers for migrants, which was where I entered the conversation, it could suggest Democrats may be going too far in the other position.

On the topic of legal immigration, I am to the left of the median Democrat voter in wanting a limited increase in the current numbers. But it still has to be a limited increase.

Disagree. Mets doesn't really contribute anything to these discussions, he just derails everything with his pedantry and keeps insisting there is some sinister open borders agenda at play, even though that isn't really all that sinister. If he's what passes for a reasonable conservative these days, then their camp is in serious trouble.

From my perspective, what you see is pedantry is from responses to what I view as weak arguments.

I don't think there's a sinister open borders agenda at play with the left. I just disagree with it, but I'm not claiming that the people pushing for it think it's going to make things worse. My comments about it are generally in response to others; (this is how talk of open borders came up this time as well.)

The purpose of the thread is to have a discussion on politics. It's not supposed to be limited to one subsection of views, as much as it seems some of the regulars prefer it that way, pushing for a left-wing anti-Bernie/Bernie-skeptical sliver of conversation.

Political views can be contentious, since we are talking about serious issues where the stakes are high. Everyone standing in the way of the ideal policies is preventing millions from reaching their full potential, and probably resulting in a lot of premature death as well. The further someone else's views are, the more we think someone else's perspective is harmful, and the harder it is to imagine that they could be coming to this from a legitimate place.

Despite the high stakes, and the limited likelihood of changing anyone's mind, the goal should be to discuss things civilly without arguing about the other person. I get that the latter part gets complicated the more comments people make, and the more we get a sense of perceived shortcomings/ hypocrisies, although it's also very easy to be mistaken about someone coming at the discussion from a different frame of reference.

Tacit approval.
You're opining about what you imagine Democrats would do and how bad it would be while turning a blind eye to the abuse of children that is currently going on when Republicans actually have a greater measure of control. Perhaps you should instead wonder about what the GOP would do if they had no Democratic party or public to hold them in check.

I'm glad of the existence of the Democratic party to hold off the excesses of the right. You could argue that there are plenty of places where we get a sense of what near-complete GOP control is like (Wyoming has a Republican Governor, and Republicans have 27 out of 30 state Senate seats and 50 out of 60 State House seats) even if it doesn't quite cover all aspects of policy (Wyoming doesn't engage in foreign policy, and the state will be limited by the federal government.)

[Tendrin]

Meanwhile:

SAN FRANCISCO (CN) – The Trump administration argued in front of a Ninth Circuit panel Tuesday that the government is not required to give soap or toothbrushes to children apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border and can have them sleep on concrete floors in frigid, overcrowded cells, despite a settlement agreement that requires detainees be kept in “safe and sanitary” facilities.
All three judges appeared incredulous during the hearing in San Francisco, in which the Trump administration challenged previous legal findings that it is violating a landmark class action settlement by mistreating undocumented immigrant children at U.S. detention facilities.

But, yeah, sure Mets. Let's talk about the 'limit' on immigration -- a limit you only want to discuss so you can define the limits of the conversation rather than be forced to look at what your party is doing and what you are being an apologist for.

https://www.courthousenews.com/feds-...-without-soap/

[Iron Maiden]

These are dark times indeed if they have no shame in making statements like that in court. IMO Stephen Miller is the dark prince in the shadows that knows how to play Trump. Truth to tell, their views are not that far apart anyway. Miller is the hatchet man that implements their twisted agenda

Saw some of Trumps rantings at his Florida rally. Your politics are fucked. He went full facist "The democrats hate you, want to destroy you and ruin america".

Yes, I caught a bit of that myself and it's not just the politics that are screwed up. I'm thinkiing that even if Trump isn't doing well in the polls, there's somewhere between 40 - 45 percent of the voters that would vote for him if the election were today. I don't think he will reach 63 million as he did in 2016. But if he gets even 50-60 million votes in 2020, I find that terribly depressing and dangerous. It's frightening to know that there are that many in his cult that used to be called the Republican party. Trump followers care nothing about the Constitution except the part where they get to have guns. The fact that Trump is serious about going beyond a second term is frightening. Bill Maher has been saying this for a while now, that Trump won't go away quietly if he doesn't get re-elected. He's already got millions believing his "fake news" mantra and the "Deep State" conspiracy. He throws around treason charges about reporting that is negative about him.

I keep going back to little bit of info about Trump that I read years ago in a Vanity Fair article ....

According to a 1990 Vanity Fair interview, Ivana Trump once told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that her husband, real-estate mogul Donald Trump, now a leading Republican presidential candidate, kept a book of Hitler's speeches near his bed.

"Last April, perhaps in a surge of Czech nationalism, Ivana Trump told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that from time to time her husband reads a book of Hitler's collected speeches, My New Order, which he keeps in a cabinet by his bed ... Hitler's speeches, from his earliest days up through the Phony War of 1939, reveal his extraordinary ability as a master propagandist," Marie Brenner wrote.

Hitler was one of history's most prolific orators, building a genocidal Nazi regime with speeches that bewitched audiences.

Now Trump has these big plans for a Fourth of July celebration which will include a speech by Trump. What do you want to bet the content will just be another one of his typical rallies. He probably will have the crowd "chanting Lock her up" like he did down in Florida. You would have thought he was running against Hillary again.

[Malvolio]

These are dark times indeed if they have no shame in making statements like that in court. IMO Stephen Miller is the dark prince in the shadows that knows how to play Trump. Truth to tell, their views are not that far apart anyway. Miller is the hatchet man that implements their twisted agenda



Yes, I caught a bit of that myself and it's not just the politics that are screwed up. I'm thinkiing that even if Trump isn't doing well in the polls, there's somewhere between 40 - 45 percent of the voters that would vote for him if the election were today. I don't think he will reach 63 million as he did in 2016. But if he gets even 50-60 million votes in 2020, I find that terribly depressing and dangerous. It's frightening to know that there are that many in his cult that used to be called the Republican party. Trump followers care nothing about the Constitution except the part where they get to have guns. The fact that Trump is serious about going beyond a second term is frightening. Bill Maher has been saying this for a while now, that Trump won't go away quietly if he doesn't get re-elected. He's already got millions believing his "fake news" mantra and the "Deep State" conspiracy. He throws around treason charges about reporting that is negative about him.

I keep going back to little bit of info about Trump that I read years ago in a Vanity Fair article ....



Now Trump has these big plans for a Fourth of July celebration which will include a speech by Trump. What do you want to bet the content will just be another one of his typical rallies. He probably will have the crowd "chanting Lock her up" like he did down in Florida. You would have thought he was running against Hillary again.

Trevor Noah just showed how Trump's speech from the other day is practically identical to a speech from 2016. He's like an aging rock star who knows his fans only want to hear the hits. "Build the wall." "Lock her up." "MAGA"

[PaulBullion]

Trevor Noah just showed how Trump's speech from the other day is practically identical to a speech from 2016. He's like an aging rock star who knows his fans only want to hear the hits. "Build the wall." "Lock her up." "MAGA"

And the Politico headline for the event was "Trump stages his greatest show yet!"

They're doing it again, and it could get all of us killed.

[numberthirty]

From the "Illinois..." corner -

- https://news.wttw.com/2019/06/19/fbi...-carrie-austin

FBI Raids 34th Ward Office of Ald. Carrie Austin

[PaulBullion]

I keep monitoring the situation in Germany, and it seems that they, too, need to do more against neonazis.

As the investigation into the murder of Walter Lübcke intensifies, Cologne's mayor and several other German politicians have had their lives threatened. Police say the threats likely also stem from right-wing extremists.

While campaigning in 2015, Reker was stabbed by a right-wing extremist wielding a hunting knife and suffered serious injuries. The attacker said he targeted Reker because of her pro-refugee stance.

According to local public broadcaster WDR, one of the other politicians targeted is Andreas Hollstein, the mayor of the western town of Altena.

Like Reker, Hollstein was also stabbed, in 2017, by a man who shouted anti-migrant remarks before slashing the politician's neck with a knife in a kebab shop.

I guess both those mayors are grateful that Germany at least has strict gun controls, otherwise they would not have survived the previous attempts on their lives.

[shooshoomanjoe]

What went wrong in the developing world that it's seeing such a big surge of white supremacists?

[aja_christopher]

It's important to maintain perspective. America, even under Trump, treats immigrants better than most other countries do.

Deflection and projection.

Par for course.

[SquirrelMan]

What went wrong in the developing world that it's seeing such a big surge of white supremacists?

Those people have always been there. It has been easier to amplify their voices. And the end of the Soviet Union has led to a Russia that is supporting those groups to destabilize the West.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

Those people have always been there. It has been easier to amplify their voices. And the end of the Soviet Union has led to a Russia that is supporting those groups to destabilize the West.

Meanwhile, here in the States, white supremacists from coast to coast are jumping for joy because they FINALLY have someone in the Oval Office willingly and eagerly championing their racist causes in Trump who, thirty years later, STILL wants the Central Park Five put to death, even though conclusive evidence cleared them of all guilt. How much of that is Trump stubbornly unwilling to admit he was wrong about the outcome of the case, and how much is the fact he wants those men dead because they're black?

[Kirby101]

What went wrong in the developing world that it's seeing such a big surge of white supremacists?

Income inequity. The Rich and powerful are very good at taking the attention off of them and focusing it on those lower than the working class.

[Malvolio]

Meanwhile, here in the States, white supremacists from coast to coast are jumping for joy because they FINALLY have someone in the Oval Office willingly and eagerly championing their racist causes in Trump who, thirty years later, STILL wants the Central Park Five put to death, even though conclusive evidence cleared them of all guilt. How much of that is Trump stubbornly unwilling to admit he was wrong about the outcome of the case, and how much is the fact he wants those men dead because they're black?

It's more the former than the latter. Trump doesn't want all black men dead. He needs a few of them to be window dressing like Dr. Ben Carson to "prove" that he's not racist.