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  1. #2896
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    Bidens become a bluedog then

  2. #2897
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    I really wish there was a more concise way to view that NYT piece.

  3. #2898
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    The inspirational campaign motif of “nothing will fundamentally change” is sure to surge Joe to the White House so he can cut deal with klan members

  4. #2899
    Mighty Member SquirrelMan's Avatar
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    Those who agree with the people running the camps and disagree with the actual Auschwitz Museum should probably reconsider their life choices.

  5. #2900
    Mighty Member SquirrelMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    I’m not usually a Biden basher but jeezus Joe, what the hell?!? There’s “showing willingness to work with the other side” and “bringing back civility to politics” and then there’s just running as a straight up Republican candidate. Which one is it?

    Democrats Slam Joe Biden Over Comments Invoking Segregationist Senators

    https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5...b06ad4d25a3df6


    Joe Biden Promises Rich Donors He Won’t ‘Demonize’ The Wealthy If Elected President

    https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5...b0f7b74428e4c6
    I have not seen a single thing in Biden's campaign that excites me. I have no idea why he is the front runner, but if he gets the nomination, I will vote for him of course.

  6. #2901
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    I don't think any of the potential candidates sound interesting. Looks like next year I'll just be voting against trump.

  7. #2902
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    Saw some of Trumps rantings at his Florida rally. Your politics are fucked. He went full facist "The democrats hate you, want to destroy you and ruin america".

  8. #2903

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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    It's a false equivocation -- with regards to morality, Obama didn't openly use family separations as a deterrent, nor did he demonize immigrants or refer to them as "rapists". If you want to argue that those things are acceptable, then do so openly instead of trying to misrepresent the policies and general stance of the Obama administration (or "liberals" in general) on the immigration issue.

    Yet, illegal immigration numbers still dropped under his administration -- an "acceptable alternative" that you still refuse to give "liberals" credit for.

    All you show with this kind of "reasoning" is that your sole goal is to deflect from the shortcomings of your party, regardless of the terminology involved.

    -----
    "When the surge of migrant children began arriving in 2014, the Obama administration tried some of the same tactics as the Trump administration.

    The Obama administration housed migrant children in temporary camps on military bases. And it pushed for long-term detention of migrant families while their asylum cases played out in immigration court, though federal courts blocked that policy.

    But then, those tactics shifted. Under Obama, the federal government eventually spent billions of dollars in response to the migrant surge. For instance,the administration greatly expanded the network of shelters contracted by the Department of Health and Human Services that house unaccompanied children. These shelters house the children until they can be placed with a parent or other relative already living in the U.S.

    According to Michelle Brané, the Obama administration deserves credit for learning from its mistakes.

    "The Trump administration has done basically the opposite," Brané said. "They took exactly what failed, and expanded on it."

    While the Obama administration would sometimes separate migrant families in detention, especially in cases in which the parent was deemed unsuitable, Brané pointed out the the Trump administration regularly separated families before abandoning the policy last year. Under Trump, nearly 3,000 children were separated from their parents under a "zero tolerance" policy against illegal border crossings.

    And under Trump, the network of shelters for unaccompanied children nearly reached capacity of 15,000 before the administration relaxed new rules for vetting the adult sponsors, making it easier for children to be released to live with their family members while they await their day in immigration court."

    https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/68362...outhern-border

    -------

    "DHS watchdog finds expired food, dilapidated bathrooms amid 'egregious' conditions at ICE facilities in 2018"

    "The Department of Homeland Security inspector general found expired food and dilapidated bathrooms during unannounced visits to four immigrant detention facilities in 2018, according to a report released Thursday.

    The kitchen at one facility was in such poor shape -- with open packages of raw chicken leaking blood over refrigeration units -- that the kitchen manager was replaced while the IG inspection was ongoing.

    The report describes conditions at facilities last year, but it comes amid a worsening situation along the US-Mexico border, where the number of migrants crossing the border illegally has surpassed previous years. The dramatic increase in arrivals -- the majority of whom are families and children -- has overwhelmed the Department of Homeland Security, including Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the agency reviewed in the latest report.

    CNN was first to report on the IG's findings.

    President Donald Trump has railed against the swell of migrants, threatening tariffs against Mexico and pushing for additional barriers along the border. More than 144,000 migrants were encountered or arrested at the US-Mexico border in May, a roughly 32% increase over April and the highest monthly total in 13 years, Customs and Border Protection said Wednesday, including over 11,000 unaccompanied children.

    As of Monday, there were around 52,000 single adults in ICE custody -- an all-time high that exceeds funding levels yet again, according to ICE."

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/06/polit...ort/index.html


    -----
    ""Watchdog finds detainees 'standing on toilets' for breathing room at border facility holding 900 people in space meant for 125"

    "The Department of Homeland Security's Inspector General has found "dangerous overcrowding" and unsanitary conditions at an El Paso, Texas, Border Patrol processing facility following an unannounced inspection, according to a new report.

    The IG found "standing room only conditions" at the El Paso Del Norte Processing Center, which has a maximum capacity of 125 migrants. On May 7 and 8, logs indicated that there were "approximately 750 and 900 detainees, respectively."

    "We also observed detainees standing on toilets in the cells to make room and gain breathing space, thus limiting access to the toilets," the report states. The report was first obtained by CNN. A cell with a maximum capacity of 12 held 76 detainees, another with a maximum capacity of eight held 41, and another with a maximum capacity of 35 held 155, according to the report.

    "(Customs and Border Protection) was struggling to maintain hygienic conditions in the holding cells. With limited access to showers and clean clothing, detainees were wearing soiled clothing for days or weeks," the report states. Other issues raised include spoiled food, lack of provisions, like lotion, that is required for detainees, and strip searches with no documented justification.

    The report notes that ICE detainees "are held in civil, not criminal, custody, which is not supposed to be punitive."

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/31/polit...ons/index.html
    For the purposes of determining whether the migrant detention facilities under the Obama administration counted as concentration camps, the rhetoric doesn't matter. If there's a definition that includes the World War 2 internment camps and the current migrant camps but doesn't count prisons or the Obama era migrant camps, present it. Otherwise it does seem that this is a bad faith argument. Pointing out the flaws in an argument against the current administration is not tantamount to endorsing every action and statement by the President.

    Quote Originally Posted by worstblogever View Post
    Arguing the semantics of if the immigrant detention centers are concentration camps aren't so far-fetched as the Trump campaign is fully aware they have the Proud Boys frequenting MAGA rallies where Trump speaks, and that they then go out into the street like the ol' Brownshirts did and look for "leftists" to attack.

    We know what he is and what these people are. There's a logic to what to classify the Republicans who stick around and try to convince people it isn't happening that I've seen from one Julius Goat.
    How about the semantics of the claim that Obama's immigration detention centers aren't concentration camps but that the current ones are?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    Whatever label you want to attach, these are places of misery where children are seperated from their families and subjected to mental and physical abuse. If any Republican wishes to argue this I would ask if they would inter their own childen in one of these facilities for an indeterminate amount of time without aid or oversight.
    Despite their self reported high ideals and Christian Values, the lack of any overt protest or call for halt of these practices implies tacit approval and suggests a willingness to turn a blind eye as long as their own, apparently higher-valued desires are met.
    The argument of "But the Democrats want open boarders.." is proven to be BS since Democratic and Republican lawmakers have met to negotiate a fair solution to this problem and had ther deal struck down by Trump. I can guarantee you that open boarders was nowhere in that paperwork.
    I suggest that as long as any Republican is willing to keep quiet and inactive about what their "fairly elected" President is doing to these people, they summarily shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down when it comes to Democrats getting upset about it. If you don't agree with it but aren't willing to help stop it at least get out of the way.
    From the perspective of the parents, it's understandable why they want to bring their kids to the US. But it isn't our current policy to take everyone.

    It's safe to say that any proposed framework for a deal isn't reflective of what the Democrats would do if they didn't have to worry about a Republican-controlled Senate or the Republican President. They still haven't presented a limiting principle on legal immigration to the voters.

  9. #2904
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    I’m not usually a Biden basher but jeezus Joe, what the hell?!? There’s “showing willingness to work with the other side” and “bringing back civility to politics” and then there’s just running as a straight up Republican candidate. Which one is it?

    Democrats Slam Joe Biden Over Comments Invoking Segregationist Senators

    https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5...b06ad4d25a3df6


    Joe Biden Promises Rich Donors He Won’t ‘Demonize’ The Wealthy If Elected President

    https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5...b0f7b74428e4c6
    Joe was all over news channels while I was at the gym. Good god, talk about a clusterfuck, pining for the old days of partisan cooperation which ended when years and years ago and will NEVER come back. Biden is so out of touch, it’s frightening, and yet, I doubt today’s dumpster fire will have a negative impact on Joe’s polling numbers.
    Avatar: Here's to the late, great Steve Dillon. Best. Punisher. Artist. EVER!

  10. #2905
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    I’m not usually a Biden basher but jeezus Joe, what the hell?!? There’s “showing willingness to work with the other side” and “bringing back civility to politics” and then there’s just running as a straight up Republican candidate. Which one is it?

    Democrats Slam Joe Biden Over Comments Invoking Segregationist Senators

    https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5...b06ad4d25a3df6


    Joe Biden Promises Rich Donors He Won’t ‘Demonize’ The Wealthy If Elected President

    https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5...b0f7b74428e4c6
    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Bidens become a bluedog then
    Not really.

    Biden is a "Business As Usual..." Democrat. This exactly what he was always going to say. Nothing about it is even remotely shocking. It's what he(and Democrats like him) have always been.

  11. #2906
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    How about the semantics of the claim that Obama's immigration detention centers aren't concentration camps but that the current ones are?
    I never made the claim that Obama didn't run similar camps -- in fact I linked to an article stating that his administration recognized that it was the wrong approach and attempted to adjust accordingly, while Trump is embracing those failed policies and using things like family separation, inhumane treatment and prison-like living conditions as a "deterrent" to those seeking asylum.

    You ignore the fact that Obama never treated immigrants with disrespect, nor demonized them as rapists and criminals as your party and president have.

    You continue to try to justify this with unproven and discredited accusations of "open borders" when you know Democrats have never proposed any such legislation in their immigration bills, falsely claiming no "acceptable" alternative to this cruelty has been offered, when in reality it's Republican behavior that has become unacceptable to those with a conscience.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 06-19-2019 at 05:36 PM.

  12. #2907

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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    I never made the claim that Obama didn't run similar camps -- in fact I linked to an article stating that his administration recognized that it was the wrong approach and attempted to adjust accordingly, while Trump is embracing those failed policies and using things like family separation, inhumane treatment and prison-like living conditions as a "deterrent" to those seeking asylum.

    You ignore the fact that Obama never treated immigrants with disrespect, nor demonized them as rapists and criminals as your party and president have.

    You continue to try to justify this with unproven and discredited accusations of "open borders" when you know Democrats have never proposed any such legislation in their immigration bills, falsely claiming no "acceptable" alternative to this cruelty has been offered, when in reality it's Republican behavior that has become unacceptable to those with a conscience.
    If you think the Obama administration ran concentration camps and then reversed course, that would be a crucial distinction with Trump. Generally, the people saying that the Trump administration ran concentration camps aren't saying that the Obama administration also did this, or providing a clear-cut definition of the phrase that excludes the detention centers we had prior to Trump's election.

    The point on whether an administration has concentration camps has nothing to do with whether Obama treated undocumented immigrants with respect, and hasn't demonized them as rapists and criminals.

    I have also never claimed that Democrats proposed legislation about open borders, although I have noted that sanctuary city policies are an example of Democrats doing what they can to make it easier for those who came to the country illegally. I've expressed the view that Democrats (the officeholders and activists) are probably divided on open borders, and dishonest about their views, given the failure to address the most important question on immigration: what should be the limit on legal immigration?

  13. #2908
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    What should be the limit on legal immigration?
    That question has nothing to do with your party's reprehensible treatment of immigrants -- and other minorities -- which is the issue at hand.

    Not semantics, not limiting principles, but basic human decency.

    Last edited by aja_christopher; 06-19-2019 at 06:30 PM.

  14. #2909
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    Joe was all over news channels while I was at the gym. Good god, talk about a clusterfuck, pining for the old days of partisan cooperation which ended when years and years ago and will NEVER come back. Biden is so out of touch, it’s frightening, and yet, I doubt today’s dumpster fire will have a negative impact on Joe’s polling numbers.
    We'd have to see a major change in the parties, particularly the Republicans, but I wouldn't say never.

    I believe the best policies are crafted by good bi-partisan, well-intentioned people. Of course, one party is devoid of good intentions, but I don't think it will always be this way. Maybe I have too much optimism.

  15. #2910
    What fresh hell is this? ChadH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post

    From the perspective of the parents, it's understandable why they want to bring their kids to the US. But it isn't our current policy to take everyone.

    It's safe to say that any proposed framework for a deal isn't reflective of what the Democrats would do if they didn't have to worry about a Republican-controlled Senate or the Republican President. They still haven't presented a limiting principle on legal immigration to the voters.
    Tacit approval.
    You're opining about what you imagine Democrats would do and how bad it would be while turning a blind eye to the abuse of children that is currently going on when Republicans actually have a greater measure of control. Perhaps you should instead wonder about what the GOP would do if they had no Democratic party or public to hold them in check.
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