All Purpose News and Politics Thread Part IV: The Center Cannot Hold

[The Overlord]

Well....we sorta have to do one first don't we? I mean, I'd like to do both at the same time, but what if the lay of the land is that we can't? At least not yet? I agree this struggle will be ongoing, but four more years of Trump could be guaranteed in the name of maybe moving the conditions forward. I guess I don't feel comfortable betting on the maybe at the expense of the guarantee.

I agree, it's not inspirational, but one of the things the right does that keeps kicking us down this road is their voting base is willing to throw themselves behind anyone (or anything in the case of the ghoul in office now) in the name of not giving an inch. There is something to be learned from that, even if it is unseemly.

Except that's not the message Biden is running on, he keeps on saying Trump is arbitration and Republicans will want to work with him after he wins.

That's not pragmatic, it's horribly naive. I would worry that Biden would win, say ''everything is fine now'' and let Trumpism thrive in opposition to him. The tea party grew under Obama's terms in office, that was the seed that gave birth to Trumpism, not trying to get ahead of this next time, would be foolish, IMO.

There is a hardcore Trump base we will never reach and we shouldn't bother trying, but I think there some working class people in say Michigan who were swayed by Trump's anti-NAFTA talk that could be swayed back to the Dems with pro-union, pro-worker policies.

I think it's a bigger mistake not to recognize that the Republicans are the ones responsible for Trump -- not the Democrats, whether "moderate" or "liberal".

Again -- even moderate Republicans like Obama couldn't pass legislation with Republicans in control of Congress so place the blame where it lies -- on the Republican party and those on the "left" who like to complain but don't like to show up to vote.

We'll see if things have changed (post-midterms) but the infighting is an early sign that some people still haven't learned their lesson.

Talk is cheap -- votes are what matter in the political world.

Don't get me wrong, I would put the blame on Trump on the GOP mostly, I think the GOP has been playing footies with bigots since the 60s and Trump is just logical extension of that. But then again, we have to realize the GOP is an enemy to fight, not just people we kinda disagree with.

But that just makes Biden's talk about how Republicans will want work with him if he wins, seem horribly naive.

That been said, I do not think the working class people in the Blue Wall states who voted for Trump not are lost forever, Trump spoke to unhappiness over NAFTA and Clinton said nothing to them, having someone address their concerns will ensure their votes, they want a change and a better life, not business as usual. Trump has not made their lives better, but you cannot take these people for granted, that is what Hilliary did.

See left-wing policies do not just appeal to some hardcore leftists on some liberal arts campus somewhere, they can appeal to actual blue collar people in key states, that you need to win.

People may have a civic duty to vote, but they have no duty to vote for Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton or anyone else, politicians have to make a case why people should vote for them and if their big argument is ''I'm not Trump'', for a lot of people, that on its own is not good enough.

I think left-wing policies are both morally correct and I think they could be really popular with a lot of people, I am not just suggesting this stuff on a whim.

[Theleviathan]

Except that's not the message Biden is running on, he keeps on saying Trump is arbitration and Republicans will want to work with him after he wins.

That's not pragmatic, it's horribly naive. I would worry that Biden would win, say ''everything is fine now'' and let Trumpism thrive in opposition to him. The tea party grew under Obama's terms in office, that was the seed that gave birth to Trumpism, not trying to get ahead of this next time, would be foolish, IMO.

There is a hardcore Trump base we will never reach and we shouldn't bother trying, but I think there some working class people in say Michigan who were swayed by Trump's anti-NAFTA talk that could be swayed back to the Dems with pro-union, pro-worker policies.

I don't disagree with any of this. Naive is the right word. Or he's naive that the compromises he reaches with them are also not problematic over time.

I'm with you though - Dems need to find a candidate that can reach the pro-worker, blue collar, agriculture voting blocs they once dominated. I'll vote for any candidate that can marshal the base and reach many of those people. I think, to their credit, the candidates seem to get that. Nevertheless there is a vocal part of the left that does not seem to get that. I worry about that.

[Jack Dracula]

I overheard two college students talking about the debates. Neither watched and both support Bernie.

Because he dumbs it down and doesn't deviate from his message.
I saw Bernie when he came to my town in 2015. He made almost exactly the same points then as he did at the recent debate.

[Tami]

WATCH: Daily Kos Founder Markos Moulitsas on why Bernie Sanders did not stand out in the debates. #MTPDaily @markos: “The problem with Bernie Sanders is that he has the exact same message he had four years ago.”

Twitter Link

If Bernie never changes, while the world aroudn him keeps changing, eventually his 'great new ideas' will be historical dust and he will be just be a backwards old man, a Nowhere Man.

[numberthirty]

...

Don't get me wrong, I would put the blame on Trump on the GOP mostly, I think the GOP has been playing footies with bigots since the 60s and Trump is just logical extension of that. But then again, we have to realize the GOP is an enemy to fight, not just people we kinda disagree with.

But that just makes Biden's talk about how Republicans will want work with him if he wins, seem horribly naive.

That been said, I do not think the working class people in the Blue Wall states who voted for Trump not are lost forever, Trump spoke to unhappiness over NAFTA and Clinton said nothing to them, having someone address their concerns will ensure their votes, they want a change and a better life, not business as usual. Trump has not made their lives better, but you cannot take these people for granted, that is what Hilliary did.

See left-wing policies do not just appeal to some hardcore leftists on some liberal arts campus somewhere, they can appeal to actual blue collar people in key states, that you need to win.

People may have a civic duty to vote, but they have no duty to vote for Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton or anyone else, politicians have to make a case why people should vote for them and if their big argument is ''I'm not Trump'', for a lot of people, that on its own is not good enough.

I think left-wing policies are both morally correct and I think they could be really popular with a lot of people, I am not just suggesting this stuff on a whim.

Just to point this out...

"Blame..." is always a weird undertaking. That said, I will never get why in the world a President and most of the cable news outfits thought that goading Trump was a good idea.

[aja_christopher]

Twitter Link

If Bernie never changes, while the world aroudn him keeps changing, eventually his 'great new ideas' will be historical dust and he will be just be a backwards old man, a Nowhere Man.

I can't say that about him since some of his ideas are what a lot of people would like to see addressed in the near future (universal health care, college debt, corporate regulation, climate change, etc).

The issue is getting that kind of legislation passed without support from moderates on both sides of the aisle -- and doing so without trying to take down the Democratic party in the process.

[The Overlord]

Just to point this out...

"Blame..." is always a weird undertaking. That said, I will never get why in the world a President and most of the cable news outfits thought that goading Trump was a good idea.

No, I think it's fair to blame the GOP for a lot of these problems, their small government ideology is a lie, they have been playing footies with bigots since the 60s and are such servants of corporate power they do not care if the planet gets cooked in the process. I see them as a big part of the problem and they have nothing to do with the solution. I have no problem with blaming them for a lot of them. I hated them in the Bush years but thought maybe they would get better after they lost in 2008, but they haven't, they are worse.

The GOP's Southern Strategy is a big part of the creation of Trumpism, Trump is a symptom, the GOP is the virus.

Twitter Link

If Bernie never changes, while the world aroudn him keeps changing, eventually his 'great new ideas' will be historical dust and he will be just be a backwards old man, a Nowhere Man.

Exactly, what is wrong with Bernie's ideas? What's your criticism of them?

I would rather someone who stays on message and says what they believe in, rather than someone who flips flops based on the poll numbers.

[aja_christopher]

See left-wing policies do not just appeal to some hardcore leftists on some liberal arts campus somewhere, they can appeal to actual blue collar people in key states, that you need to win.

I don't disagree but I'll believe it really matters to them when I see them start voting accordingly.

[numberthirty]

No, I think it's fair to blame the GOP for a lot of these problems, their small government ideology is a lie, they have been playing footies with bigots since the 60s and are such servants of corporate power they do not care if the planet gets cooked in the process. I see them as a big part of the problem and they have nothing to do with the solution.

Trump is just an odd case.

I think that one of the only scenarios where he had a chance is one where the GOP had been feeding the "Washington Is Broken..."/Tea Party narrative out ahead of it.

[The Overlord]

Trump is just an odd case.

I think that one of the only scenarios where he had a chance is one where the GOP had been feeding the "Washington Is Broken..."/Tea Party narrative out ahead of it.

I disagree, I think Trump is the natural conclusion of what the GOP has done since the 60s. Its same pattern, Bush Jr. ran on being an outsider, won and the GOP base worshipped him as well. Trump is not an outlier, he is part of their system, he is just moving the ball a little further to towards extremism, but that's the direction it was always heading.

Compare the GOP to any mainstream right-wing party in the rest of the Western World and you will see how extreme are (most of them believe in climate change. for example). Though I wonder if more right wing parties will copy Trump's play book in the long run.

[Tami]

No, I think it's fair to blame the GOP for a lot of these problems, their small government ideology is a lie, they have been playing footies with bigots since the 60s and are such servants of corporate power they do not care if the planet gets cooked in the process. I see them as a big part of the problem and they have nothing to do with the solution. I have no problem with blaming them for a lot of them. I hated them in the Bush years but thought maybe they would get better after they lost in 2008, but they haven't, they are worse.

The GOP's Southern Strategy is a big part of the creation of Trumpism, Trump is a symptom, the GOP is the virus.





Exactly, what is wrong with Bernie's ideas? What's your criticism of them?

I would rather someone who stays on message and says what they believe in, rather than someone who flips flops based on the poll numbers.

I have nothing against Bermie's ideas, that doesn't mean I think he should be president. Lots of people have ideas, that doens't mean they should be president. Staying on message over the course of a single campaign is fine, staying on message, the same exact message, over several years and multiple campaigns gets stale and shows him as not being very Progressive.

[numberthirty]

I disagree, I think Trump is the natural conclusion of what the GOP has done since the 60s. Its same pattern, Bush Jr. ran on being an outsider, won and the GOP base worshipped him as well. Trump is not an outlier, he is part of their system, he is just moving the ball a little further to towards extremism, but that's the direction it was always heading.

Compare the GOP to any mainstream right-wing party in the rest of the Western World and you will see how extreme are (most of them believe in climate change. for example). Though I wonder if more right wing parties will copy Trump's play book in the long run.

There, we will have to agree to disagree.

While we aren't on completely different pages, I don't really think for a second that the entire "Trade War/Tariffs..." aspect is anything that they have been leading up to.

I think that they thought that they could get a "We Still Get To Do Business Largely Unchanged...", but never considered that they might leave the door open for something they couldn't fence in.

[The Overlord]

There, we will have to agree to disagree.

While we aren't on completely different pages, I don't really think for a second that the entire "Trade War/Tariffs..." aspect is anything that they have been leading up to.

I think that they thought that they could get a "We Still Get To Do Business Largely Unchanged...", but never considered that they might leave the door open for something they couldn't fence in.

Except there has always been an economic nationalist part of the GOP, look at Pat Buchanan.

The GOP is the biggest corporate power party around, but they know that is unpopular ultimately, so they have BS distractions to make themselves popular (social issue BS like being anti-abortion or anti-gay marriage) the GOP is just blaming Mexico for American corporations crewing over their own workers, they use nationalism to deflect worker complaints about their bosses on to other countries, while furthering their corporate agenda. It's easy to square this circle if you look at their history and see them in the most cynical light possible.

I have nothing against Bermie's ideas, that doesn't mean I think he should be president. Lots of people have ideas, that doens't mean they should be president. Staying on message over the course of a single campaign is fine, staying on message, the same exact message, over several years and multiple campaigns gets stale and shows him as not being very Progressive.

I think the person with the best-left wing policies has the most progressive policies, it's that simple. If his policies are fine, why should he change them?

In terms of who has the most progressive policy platform among the Dem candidates, I think its Bernie, then Warren.....then someone like Biden would be in last place. You can pretty well rank these guys by who is the most to least progressive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XWvM95bbEI

[heretic]

Again, I like Sanders' policies, I did, and continue to want to like Sanders, but his fan club is seriously problematic to him. He had an alright night last night, not as good as Kamala, but he definitely didn't throw up on himself like Biden, Yang, or Williamson.

This is, in a lot of ways, a disconnect on intra-Democratic Party feuding. Few do not think Sanders does not have good ideas, and even fewer dislike him overall. His fans; in particular the people who demanded the DNC rewrite primary rules in his favor on the fly, demanded he be appointed the candidate despite the results of the elections, and continue to swear there is no real daylight between the Clintons and bloody Trump; are the ones that creep me out personally.

[heretic]

Do you think the Democratic party should be a real left-wing party or a center-right party? Because to me, that is the big question here, are we going to just defeat Trump to defeat the things that created Trumpism in the first place? Just trying to reset the clock back before Trump became President, means you are not addressing the root causes here. America needs an actual left-wing party to address the problems that created Trumpism and someone like Biden is not up to the task.

So tell me, if the choice is between More Trump or a Democratic Candidate that you deem insufficiently Left Wing, who do you endorse or more to the point vote for?

How many years in the wilderness will be sufficient to forge a 'proper' movement?