All Purpose News and Politics Thread Part IV: The Center Cannot Hold

[The Overlord]

This is, in a lot of ways, a disconnect on intra-Democratic Party feuding. Few do not think Sanders does not have good ideas, and even fewer dislike him overall. His fans; in particular the people who demanded the DNC rewrite primary rules in his favor on the fly, demanded he be appointed the candidate despite the results of the elections, and continue to swear there is no real daylight between the Clintons and bloody Trump; are the ones that creep me out personally.

But again, I think for a lot of people, it's his ideas that matter. I like Bernie the best, but someone like Warren would be a good second choice, I am not saying its Bernie or bust, I am saying you need someone with actual left-wing ideas to fix the busted system.

And yes Clinton and Trump are not the same, obviously, but if Clinton was unwilling to deal with conditions that created Trumpism, which I do not she was willing to do, she would have delayed Trumpism, not defeated it. The system as it now breeds Trumpism, if it's not changed, Trumpism will just take a new form if Trump is defeated, it will not go away in the current system. Trump is a symptom, not the disease, fixing what created Trumpism requires real work, not just putting a band-aid on a gaping wound.

Would Biden be a better President than Trump? Yes, but would Biden be willing to take on Trumpism itself or would he ignore it if he won? That's the big question.

So tell me, if the choice is between More Trump or a Democratic Candidate that you deem insufficiently Left Wing, who do you endorse or more to the point vote for?

How many years in the wilderness will be sufficient to forge a 'proper' movement?

If you are going to ask me is Biden a better choice then Trump, yes, obviously and should vote for Biden over Trump, yes.

But answer me this question do you think Trump is the only problem or a symptom of a larger problem?

Because I think Trump is a symptom of a bigger problem and if Biden becomes President and says ''everything is fine now'' you are going back to the environment that breed Trumpism in the first place.

Do you want to win a battle or win a war? Because there is no normalcy to go back to, that normalcy was an illusion, if you want to ''get woke'', just to go back to sleep when Trump is no longer President, you will see Trumpism come back worse then ever in short order. This marathon, not a jog, defeating Trump is part one, but the job is not done if you do not defeat Trumpism.

As long as Trumpism exists, that normalcy people crave will never exist, only by making a better system can Trumpism be defeated.

What if Biden is the nominee, runs the same type of neoliberal campaign Hilliary Clinton ran and Trump eats him breakfast then what? What if Biden is not the safe choice he is making himself out to be, he had no good answer when Harris brought up his record, you don't think Trump will do the same? It's naive to think Biden is a sure bet against Trump, don't leave anything to chance.

[Theleviathan]

Would Biden be a better President than Trump? Yes, but would Biden be willing to take on Trumpism itself or would he ignore it if he won? That's the big question.

Based on how you described Trumpism and the avenue to defeat it.....isn't that right up Biden's alley? He's about as blue-collar, working class as it gets in this field.

On policy I can understand some skepticism, but there is no doubt in my mind that many of his concerns will start in the same place you voiced.

[The Overlord]

Based on how you described Trumpism and the avenue to defeat it.....isn't that right up Biden's alley? He's about as blue-collar, working class as it gets in this field.

On policy I can understand some skepticism, but there is no doubt in my mind that many of his concerns will start in the same place you voiced.

It's not just his policies, it's his record:

https://www.vox.com/2019/1/10/181731...y-clinton-2020

Is this the blue-collar friend of the working man's record?

He is got worse baggage Clinton did, there are a ton of weak spots Trump can pick at. He is a paper tiger when it comes to being ''blue collar''.

Do you want to read the article itself or do you want to give some of the highlights?

The attack Trump made against Clinton, he can make against Biden, he is more vulnerable to them then Clinton was.

[Theleviathan]

It's not just his policies, it's his record:

https://www.vox.com/2019/1/10/181731...y-clinton-2020

Is this the blue-collar friend of the working man's record?

He is got worse baggage Clinton did, there are a ton of weak spots Trump can pick at. He is a paper tiger when it comes to being ''blue collar''.

Do you want to read the article itself or do you want to give some of the highlights?

That sounds like an enemy of Vox, whom I don't think of when I think of speaking for blue collar workers. Or relating to them.

Biden certainly has all sorts of issues in his public record, but if attacking Trumpism means helping blue collar, working people.....I wouldn't give two shits what Vox thinks is the way to go about things.

[aja_christopher]

With the temperature in France reaching an all time high of 45.9 C (114.6 F), I wonder at what point do people realize we're living in a new normal and if we don't do something now, we're going to be in a world of misery. Maybe we can't trust individual nations and governments to do the right thing, because they won't save us. How many millions have to die before we take drastic action?

Many here realize it but we have a political party and right-wing media that has convinced a large part of the American voting population that it's a "Chinese hoax" just like the Mueller investigation is a "Russian hoax".



Obama addressed it and the Republicans deny it so -- again -- we should place the responsibility where it lies.

[The Overlord]

That sounds like an enemy of Vox, whom I don't think of when I think of speaking for blue collar workers. Or relating to them.

Biden certainly has all sorts of issues in his public record, but if attacking Trumpism means helping blue collar, working people.....I wouldn't give two shits what Vox thinks is the way to go about things.

But how has Biden helped actually blue collar people? What has he done for them, that negates this record? Are you saying Vox is telling falsehoods with this article?

It seems like you want to go through the highlights, let's do it:

''Biden is in no better a position. He spent his whole career in the Senate representing Delaware, a major center of the consumer credit side of the banking industry. He was so close to the local banking giant that he was jokingly referred to as “the senator from MBNA” (which has since been bought by Bank of America).


This made him, among other things, a champion of mostly GOP-supported legislation in 2005 whose aim was to make it more difficult for hard-pressed families to discharge their credit card debt in bankruptcy.''

How was supporting this bill supposed to help the working class? If you don't think Trump will bring this up, you will be dead wrong.

Also, he voted for the Iraq War, something Trump picked at with Clinton, how would this not be a weakness for him against Trump?

Also, he voted for the 1994 crime bill that caused a surge in African American inceration rates, you don't think Trump will bring this up?

Heck, you don't think Trump won't bring up Biden's weird personal space issues with women? You can say that makes him a hypocrite, but he will do it. He used Bill Clinton against Hillary Clinton when accusations of sexual misconduct were brought up against him.

It seems like picking him is a good way to get a repeat of what happened last time, with Biden having the same weaknesses (only worse) that Trump used against Clinton.

I am not sure he is a safe bet against Trump, except Trump to use the same tricks as last time, if you have no way to counter them or expect to implode like last time, the Dems might just lose again to this guy and based on his record, I think Biden has no desire to take on the conditions that created Trumpism, he would assume everything is fine now after he won.

[Theleviathan]

I am not sure he is a safe bet against Trump, except Trump to use the same tricks as last time, if you have no way to counter them or expect to implode like last time, the Dems might just lose again to this guy and based on his record, I think Biden has no desire to take on the conditions that created Trumpism, he would assume everything is fine now after he won.

I think Vox started with a thesis (that's probably false in and of itself) and went looking for ways to make it work. If you're going to fight the conditions of Trumpism you'll need the willing support of those people you spoke of. Biden polls well with those same people. It's probably the greatest strength he brings to this race in fact.

Now, is some of that support unearned by his past policy actions? Maybe...but since when did that matter to voters? We need those blue collar voters to believe in Biden, vote Dem, and put their lot in with the left. Then it's up to those we elect down ballot to help push Joe Biden in the right direction.

And, before anyone jumps on it, you can put anyone's name in for Biden in that last paragraph pretty much. Without blue collar, worker support (especially in the midwest and rust belt) the Dems can't win. So whomever gets the nod had better make sure they have a gameplan for that. Personally, I'm rooting for Warren but I have serious questions about her ability to do that as a coastal, college professor elite with a known negative in her backstory. However, I'll vote for anyone from a well groomed chimp to a tomato if it means a Republican will lose. So my vote is easy to get.

[Tendrin]

Just the usual male Republican shouting over a woman reading a letter from a black man on the state senate floor. oh WBE-eeeee....

https://twitter.com/briantylercohen/...819943936?s=21

[The Overlord]

I think Vox started with a thesis (that's probably false in and of itself) and went looking for ways to make it work. If you're going to fight the conditions of Trumpism you'll need the willing support of those people you spoke of. Biden polls well with those same people. It's probably the greatest strength he brings to this race in fact.

Now, is some of that support unearned by his past policy actions? Maybe...but since when did that matter to voters? We need those blue collar voters to believe in Biden, vote Dem, and put their lot in with the left. Then it's up to those we elect down ballot to help push Joe Biden in the right direction.

Can you prove anything in that Vox article is false?

Also, you don't think Trump is going try to hammer Biden with his own record to say he doesn't really care about working people? That's what he did with Clinton and it worked. Picking Biden seems repeating the mistakes of the past if you learn nothing from your mistakes you are doomed to repeat them. Biden had no counter when Harris brought up his record, Trump will do the same, but be a thousand times meaner then Harris was. If Biden cannot counter Harris in this debate, I have doubts he can counter Trump

[Theleviathan]

Can you prove anything in that Vox article is false?

Also, you don't think Trump is going try to hammer Biden with his own record to say he doesn't really care about working people? That's what he did with Clinton and it worked. Picking Biden seems repeating the mistakes of the past if you learn nothing from your mistakes you are doomed to repeat them. Biden had no counter when Harris brought up his record, Trump will do the same, but be a thousand times meaner then Harris was. If Biden cannot counter Harris in this debate, I have doubts he can counter Trump

Never said it was false, just irrelevant. Trump will hammer anyone he is up against on things real, imaginary, and downright stupid. I'm not factoring that in either. There was not a single person on that stage, either night, that Trump won't hammer for something in their background. None.

For the record, I don't believe Biden passed on countering Harris because he couldn't. His public defender remark seems to indicate he knew exactly what he wanted to say. I believe he opted not to for optics. I'm not sure which is worse, getting eviscerated and not replying or putting the hammer down on another candidate far lower in the polls who is a black woman on an issue of race. There may not have been a winning move for him there. Trump does not present that kind of disadvantage.

[The Overlord]

Never said it was false, just irrelevant. Trump will hammer anyone he is up against on things real, imaginary, and downright stupid. I'm not factoring that in either. There was not a single person on that stage, either night, that Trump won't hammer for something in their background. None.

For the record, I don't believe Biden passed on countering Harris because he couldn't. His public defender remark seems to indicate he knew exactly what he wanted to say. I believe he opted not to for optics. I'm not sure which is worse, getting eviscerated and not replying or putting the hammer down on another candidate far lower in the polls who is a black woman on an issue of race. There may not have been a winning move for him there. Trump does not present that kind of disadvantage.

Alright, I just think between the weak record, his gaffes and stuff like his not respecting women's personal space, he is a far more weak candidate then people think.

If you think he is a good choice, fair enough, that's your opinion, I but have a different one.

I think he's weak, I think his blue-collar accomplishments are all style and no substance and think assuming he can win simply because he is not Trump, is underestimating Trump again. I think to beat Trump, you need strong policies, not just be some empty suit.

Didn't we pick John Kerry to beat Bush in 2004, because he was the safe electable choice? How did that work out? To me, being ''electable'' is a bit of false promise, who determines who is electable and who isn't? People said Trump was not electable and he won, to me that means the traditional rule book is not working anymore and its time to think outside the box.

Maybe Joe Biden would have more luck trying to primary Trump as a Republican.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx6MgBjR4K0&t=374s

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Twitter Link

If Bernie never changes, while the world aroudn him keeps changing, eventually his 'great new ideas' will be historical dust and he will be just be a backwards old man, a Nowhere Man.

So what? He's preaching the right things and quite frankly the world around him hasn't been able to catch up. This has been by far the best general election cycle on issues the Democrats have probably had in 30 years where we are actually advocating for things that the rest of the civillized world is doing in one form or another. The content of the last two debates would have been unthinkable just 4 years ago. And Bernie's still the most overall progressive candidate on the stage.

Lets wait until everyone else reaches where he is at before we declare him behind the times.

To me this is a none argument. His presence in 2016 absolutely justified itself the last 2 nights. The Democratic Party is shifting and the 90's Clintonian era is dying out thank god. We might actually see real universal healthcare and education in our lifetimes.

Can't call him a relic when everyone else is trying to get to his positions.

[Theleviathan]

Alright, I just think between the weak record, his gaffes and stuff like his not respecting women's personal space, he is a far more weak candidate then people think.

If you think he is a good choice, fair enough, that's your opinion, I but have a different one.

I'm not making that argument. I need the next year or so to let this field appeal to Americans and see how they respond. If America embraces Biden as their choice, then get on board. Ditto Warren or Sanders or Harris or Booker or Buttegieg or that well groomed chimp. I think they all bring various strengths and weaknesses to the table and people tend to over-emphasize the strengths of who they like and underestimate the weaknesses. And they do the reverse with who they don't like. That Vox article was a monument to that kind of behavior. Too much is being done right now to declare that this is the thing (whatever it may be) that the candidate has to have right now for my liking. Let em make their appeals, debate each other, and let's see where America lands on them.

I was merely pointing out that if blue collar, middle America is the key to defeating Trumpism, Biden has a strong case to be your best bet. At least right now. Personally, I agree with what you suggested defeats Trumpism and I hope all of the candidates embrace it as part of their platform. There are some bizarre notions on the left out there that would have us ignore that part of the country. I think that's a serious mistake.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I have nothing against Bermie's ideas, that doesn't mean I think he should be president. Lots of people have ideas, that doens't mean they should be president. Staying on message over the course of a single campaign is fine, staying on message, the same exact message, over several years and multiple campaigns gets stale and shows him as not being very Progressive.

Name one canidate out of the 20 who is more progressive than him.

Only Warren matches him on healthcare as far as being a progressive. Only Warren matches him on education as far as being a progressive. Only Tulsi matches him on foreign policy as far being a progressive. Maybe Castro is slightly better at immigration than him? On the economy, Warren and him are pretty much neck and neck only maybe a slight edge to Warren. Guns are probably the only major issue where Bernie doesn't have a strong consistent record. And Democrats are for the most part cowards on that issue anyways.

The only argument I see here is that Bernie's been so progressive that decades later without shifting much he's still ahead of where most everyone else is on the most issues. So you really just made an argument that he has credibility with his message because he's been all over it for a long time and aside from maybe two canidates he's one of the few that can by and large say that he isn't doing it for a campaign (hint Corey Booker has never been more progressive that he is now, nor has Gillibrand, hell I love Warren and have been contributing to her for most of this decade, but she just finally moved in perfect unison with him on healthcare about a day ago.

If this was 20 years from now and we all have what he is trying to get and he has no new ideas, sure then make that argument. But the reality is, he's probably going to die before we get close to even half of platform being passed, and make no mistake, that's really where the country is trending and needs to be.

[Tami]

Name one canidate out of the 20 who is more progressive than him.

Only Warren matches him on healthcare as far as being a progressive. Only Warren matches him on education as far as being a progressive. Only Tulsi matches him on foreign policy as far being a progressive. Maybe Castro is slightly better at immigration than him? On the economy, Warren and him are pretty much neck and neck only maybe a slight edge to Warren. Guns are probably the only major issue where Bernie doesn't have a strong consistent record. And Democrats are for the most part cowards on that issue anyways.

The only argument I see here is that Bernie's been so progressive that decades later without shifting much he's still ahead of where most everyone else is on the most issues. So you really just made an argument that he has credibility with his message because he's been all over it for a long time and aside from maybe two canidates he's one of the few that can by and large say that he isn't doing it for a campaign (hint Corey Booker has never been more progressive that he is now, nor has Gillibrand, hell I love Warren and have been contributing to her for most of this decade, but she just finally moved in perfect unison with him on healthcare about a day ago.

If this was 20 years from now and we all have what he is trying to get and he has no new ideas, sure then make that argument. But the reality is, he's probably going to die before we get close to even half of platform being passed, and make no mistake, that's really where the country is trending and needs to be.

We have different definitions of Progressive.

Progressivism

advancements in science, technology, economic development and social organization are vital to the improvement of the human condition.

By this definition, the majority of Democrats are Progressive since they all seek to progress forward and make improvements to society and the human condition. One theory of how to do it alone isn't progressive, it's just one theory. True progress comes when all ideas are considered and worked through, eventually coming up with the best solution.

Sanders has one theory as to how to do it, but it is an old theory and it only addresses one problem. There are many other problems, each one requiring their own solutions.