All Purpose News and Politics Thread Part IV: The Center Cannot Hold

[Tami]

Oh, and just to be clear, my current leanings as far as Democratic Candidates go are Warren, Booker, Harris, and Castro.

[Tami]

The First Democratic Debate In Five Charts

Thursday night was the conclusion of the first Democratic primary debate, and, like everybody else, we’re trying to make sense of what we watched. Some candidates had breakout moments while others were pushed to the sidelines. But did these moments really make a difference to viewers?

In an attempt to answer this question, we are trying to sum up the first debate in five charts, including: our poll with Morning Consult, which is tracking the same group of voters’ feelings about the candidates and how they change after the debates; a look at which candidates gained the most followers on Twitter; and of course, how much each of the candidates spoke, including whether they mentioned President Trump.

[Tami]

A reporter asked if Trump agreed with Putin that "Western-style liberalism" was in decline. Trump, either not answering or understanding the question, then criticized LA and SF, which he said are "sad to look at" because they're "run by liberal people."

Twitter Link

[Mecegirl]

Not saying I agree with everything said here but the premise is sound -- infighting is the bane of the Democratic party, especially in contrast to Republican solidarity.

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"MSNBC host Joe Scarborough called the second night of the first 2020 Democratic debates a “disaster for the Democratic Party” and said that he hopes voters were not watching the face-off, which aired on his network.

"With apologies to our friends and watching, last night was a disaster for the Democratic Party," Scarborough said Friday on "Morning Joe." "My only hope is people were not watching and I will tell you why."

He went on to jab the candidates for criticizing each other instead of focusing their ire on President Trump.

“So they’re lined up in trench warfare, ready to get out of the trenches and charge Donald Trump. Instead, they all turn their guns on each other and shoot each other, and everybody is yelling at each other all night,” Scarborough said Friday morning.

“If you’re an American and this is your introduction to these candidates and the Democratic Party, and all you see are 12 people yelling at each other, trying to interrupt each other, insulting each other, you’re like, ‘You know what. I thought Donald Trump was a clown show. I’m changing the channel.'”

Scarborough called former Vice President Joe Biden’s performance one of “the most disturbing debate performances” he had seen, and questioned Biden for sticking closely to the debate’s rules and not focusing more specifically on issues in his answers.

“It was one of those moments where you’re going, 'My God, is he going to complete his sentence?'” Scarborough asked.

The host also accused Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) of not preparing for the debate and recycling tactics he used when he debated former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton during the 2016 Democratic presidential primary.

“Bernie Sanders was yelling all night. Bernie Sanders didn’t prepare for the debate,” Scarborough said. “It showed because he basically gave the same debate performances this year that he gave four years ago. It may have worked when it was Bernie Sanders against Hillary Clinton. It did not work last night.”

Scarborough also criticized the Democratic candidates for adopting a slate of progressive policy platforms, including decriminalizing border crossings and providing health insurance through a public option to undocumented immigrants, suggesting that they would not be able to beat Trump with that focus.

“It was a bad sign for me, as someone who desperately wants to see Donald Trump taken out of office,” Scarborough said.

He slammed Sen. Kamala Harris (D-Calif.) for calling out Biden on his history of opposing the policy of busing black students to predominately white schools. One of the most heated moments of the debate came as the California senator attacked Biden's record on civil rights.

Scarborough said the “overwhelming majority of Americans” oppose busing as a means of integrating American schools. Fifty-nine percent of Americans opposed school busing in 2009, according to the Pew Research Center."

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...020-democratic

Minor quibble...It's the debates. Like to choose the best nominee for the party. When else are they supposed to have these fights?

Major quibble. Its Joe Scarborough trying to give Democrats advice as if he actually gives a damn about the health of the party.

[Tami]

Luis Alvarez fought for 9/11 first responders who became sick. He has died at 53.

Earlier this month, former New York police detective Luis Alvarez delivered a heartbreaking plea to Congress to extend the Sept. 11 Victim Compensation Fund, which provides financial assistance to first responders who had developed illnesses after responding to the 2001 terrorist attacks.

On Saturday, his family confirmed that the veteran of the NYPD had died at age 53, having succumbed the cancer he developed years after working at Ground Zero.

Family spokesman Matt McCauley confirmed to The Post that Alvarez had passed in the early hours of Saturday morning due to “9/11-related cancer.” Alvarez, who spent developed colorectal and liver cancer in 2016.

[Malvolio]

I mean, it sounded to me he didn't have any idea what was being talked about and was just thinking about, you know, school busses taking people to school altogether. It's true, though, the president is the president of revanchist white identity politics.

Yeah. He sounded like he thought it was a "gotcha" question about how he never had to take the bus to school, having his father's limo to take him to boarding school. I'm surprised he didn't say, "I know poor kids have to take the bus to school. I know that not everyone has a limo."

[aja_christopher]

Minor quibble...It's the debates. Like to choose the best nominee for the party. When else are they supposed to have these fights?

Major quibble. Its Joe Scarborough trying to give Democrats advice as if he actually gives a damn about the health of the party.

Sure it's more about wanting to see Trump removed from office than caring about the Democratic party.

It's a "conservative" perspective, but still worth noting in terms of objectivity with regards to those looking for a reason to vote Democratic against Trump.



Anyway, my point was more about the issue of chaotic and self-defeating infighting -- not debating political differences in a rational matter.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Which is something that won't matter in the general election as Trump will brand him as a "socialist" regardless, and it will stick for the most part because his policies are socialist in nature.

Ultimately, it's great that you have "progressive" candidates that you believe in, but not everyone feels the same and it doesn't make sense to attack "moderate" Democrats when they are the ones who have actually won both nominations and elections in the past.

Ultimately, if people wanted more progressive candidates and policies then they would vote for them, but as it stands, moderate Democrats have been the ones making most of the progress in that respect (affordable health care, criminal justice reform and police oversight, business regulation, civil and voting rights, LGBT marriage, environmental protections, etc) often while in direct contention with a Republican Congress.

Maybe when that changes your arguments will have more objective validity, but as it stands you are arguing for candidates and ideals that have yet to prove their viability in presidential elections, much less in local politics nationwide (Congress).

That's not an attack on Sanders or his policies -- it's just an observation on American politics in general.

Republicans labeled Obama a socialist and it was effective as well.i don’t care for moderate Democrats if they are going to take up the mantle of Republicans and using their talk.

Also that’s kind of bs that moderates are who people vote for and who have been making effective policy. Progressives consistently have the more popular policies and were a big reason Democrats won the house back. Every policy you have listed moderates have stumbled over. Police reform, Biden cosponsored and abhorend crime bill, Buttegieg is mucking up issues in his own state, even Harris’ biggest drawback is her prosecuting decisions. LGBT rights? No sorry moderate Democrats don’t get to take credit for their cowardice on that. The courts did that. The courts made it legal across the country and then the SCOTUS ended it. Just because they turned around and said “oh I really supported gay rights the entire time doesn’t change their ineffectiveness and unwillingness when mattered. Moderates allowed the ACA to get neutered with a super majority and now it’s falling apart. The signature accomplishment of the last time Dems took power is still a contentious issue across the country, we don’t have universal healthcare, you compromised with Republicans too much to get that.

There’s so much inaccuracy in what you said. Every Dem is going to get labeled a socialist. Get used to it. The moderates only want unity and compromise on their terms. The party is shifting and they better figure out if they want to stand with Republicans and argue their points or use tried and true methods that are popular to address the issues we have

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Sure it's more about wanting to see Trump removed from office than caring about the Democratic party.

It's a "conservative" perspective, but still worth noting in terms of objectivity with regards to those looking for a reason to vote Democratic against Trump.



Anyway, my point was more about the issue of chaotic and self-defeating infighting -- not debating political differences in a rational matter.

Scarborough only cares because he realizes the damage Trump is doing. He wants him gone but he wants someone to the right who will be business as usual so he can justify voting for them and then Republicans can have a punching bag to go after until they are ready for another run.

You know what you never heard any of the 2016 Republicans say? How can we appeal more to those Democrats and get them to justify voting for us. They made sure their house was in check.

[ed2962]

Minor quibble...It's the debates. Like to choose the best nominee for the party. When else are they supposed to have these fights?

Major quibble. Its Joe Scarborough trying to give Democrats advice as if he actually gives a damn about the health of the party.

Joe is concern trolling. Plus has he forgotten the Jerry Springer style debates the republicans put on during their debates?

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Joe is concern trolling. Plus has he forgotten the Jerry Springer style debates the republicans put on during their debates?

Exactly. You had Trump calling Jeb a pussy and Cruz's wife a hag. Oh and they won. And even if you want to call shenanigans, they had a much stronger showing than they should have. I'm not really concerned about Democrats in fighting. They should be right now.

[Theleviathan]

Scarborough only cares because he realizes the damage Trump is doing. He wants him gone but he wants someone to the right who will be business as usual so he can justify voting for them and then Republicans can have a punching bag to go after until they are ready for another run.

You know what you never heard any of the 2016 Republicans say? How can we appeal more to those Democrats and get them to justify voting for us. They made sure their house was in check.

They didn't say it out loud, they just campaigned on things that wouldn't annoy independents and moderates. Trump doesn't win without converting a lot of those hope and change Obama voters, blue collar workers, and farmers.

It was total nonsense for those people to trust Republicans and Trump....yet they did. Continuing to **** on bringing them into the voting coalition is mind-numbing. People act like a little sacrifice in rhetoric and attention in the name of a broader coalition is a betrayal. It's so self-centered and ridiculous.

All those policies you give primacy to don't mean a damn thing without the power to enact them. So you have to gain that power first and that means a broad coalition.

[aja_christopher]

i don’t care for moderate Democrats if they are going to take up the mantle of Republicans and using their talk.

You've said that repeatedly but the bottom line is that your chosen candidate has yet to win the popular vote in the primaries much less the general election while "moderates" (like Clinton and Obama) are the ones who the people continue to vote for when presented with the choice between "progressives" and "moderates" even on the "left", and those are likewise the candidates who pass (or attempt to pass) "progressive" legislation once in power.

And while I'm not going to sit here and waste time arguing with you about the objectively reality where "progressives" are not the mainstream choice of the vast majority of American voters, I will point out that while you sit here fighting over who is the most "progressive" you are ignoring the fact that other voters (like myself) have a completely different view on "moderate" politics and will vote accordingly.

You likewise want to ignore the African-American vote when it suits your "progressive" interests and act as if it's "your way or the highway" when it comes to voting -- you're more than welcome to shoot yourself in the foot in that respect, but don't expect everyone else to agree with you, especially when it comes to choosing a candidate (like Sanders) to represent the Democratic party in the general election.

Keep arguing here all you want -- it won't have any real political validity until the "progressives" you keep promoting actually win nationwide elections.

[Mecegirl]

It's a "conservative" perspective, but still worth noting in terms of objectivity with regards to those looking for a reason to vote Democratic against Trump.

Ah...I should be clear. It's a Joe thing. I've tried numerous times to watch his show. He just turns me off with how over dramatic he and Mika are. Like Saturday night live has them pretty down pat. I agree with Ed that he is concern trolling because I've seen him do it before. So it is less of a conservative view thing and more of a Joe thing.

Damn this is the second time I've expressed negative opinions about MSNBC/NBC folks. Can we go ahead and add Chris Matthews to the Todd and Scarborough trash pile? lol

[aja_christopher]

Progressives consistently have the more popular policies and were a big reason Democrats won the house back.

"Progressives' plan for victory just took a gut-punch. Now what do they do?"

The Left has been eager to show it can build a winning coalition for 2020 and beyond. But that didn't happen in the midterms.

"Progressives were hoping Tuesday's elections would finally give them definitive proof that Democrats can run and win on unapologetically liberal issues in swing districts and states.

That didn't happen.

Despite a good night for congressional Democrats overall, nearly all of national progressive groups' star candidates fell short in their contests in red or purple districts and states, potentially slowing the momentum the emboldened left had enjoyed since Hillary Clinton's loss two years ago.

"Progressives have to really do some hard thinking about the shape of the movement looking at 2020 and beyond," said progressive strategist Jonathan Tasini, adding that while the left had successes in some local races, they struggled in statewide contests.

"The failure, for example, of the Ben Jealous campaign in a very Democratic state says both that sticking a simple 'progressive' branding on a candidate's campaign may sustain a small cult, but that isn't enough to win enough elections."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ele...hat-do-n933771