All Purpose News and Politics Thread Part IV: The Center Cannot Hold

[aja_christopher]

He does this alot, he passes his opinion off as facts and then when he's pushed on it he just pretends he's above the discussion he freely engaged in. It's silly should have kept him on blocl. Learned my lesson.

I posted plenty of links to facts which you ignored, not the least of which is how "progressives" didn't win the midterms for the Democrats, moderates did -- and how they actually fared badly overall in said elections, especially in competitive races.

https://www.vox.com/2018/11/7/180717...elections-2018

That said I thought you learned your lesson a long time ago when you said you'd stop posting here just because not everyone agrees with your views.

But here you are still attacking Democrats and complaining when others point out the numerous flaws in your chosen candidate.

Can progressives win national elections more than moderates? Possibly.

Have they done so thus far? No.

That's not my "opinion" -- that's fact.

[The Overlord]

No -- it just proves I don't have to argue with you.

You're just as welcome to not support "moderate" Democrats because they don't suit your political agenda as I am to support them because they actually win elections and pass "progressive" legislation.

Unless you believe that people have to agree with your political views regardless of their own personal perspective, you're not "right" -- you're just another self-entitled "progressive" who thinks the Democratic party owes him something.

So if they ''win elections'' tell me, why wasn't John Kerry President in 2004 and why wasn't Hillary Clinton President in 2016? Tell me, what determines ''who is electable'' and sometimes is focusing on that rather than who has the best policies just a way to present some overly focused tested loser who may get beaten by some bird brain like Trump or Bush Jr?

They do not owe me something, they owe the American people and the Third Way has failed to deliver anything real to them.

Am I so entitled, how dare I want to support someone who does not support BS wars like the Iraq War? How dare I get in the way of a war that wasted a trillion dollars, sent American soldiers into a meat grinder, killed thousands of Iraqi civilians and helped create ISIS, how dare I?

Who needs a progressive, when we can have diet Republicans like Biden, who supported ''states rights'', ''worked with segregationists'' and ''opposed forced busing''?

Forget being progressive, the Dems should just be moderate Republicans eh?

And yet, if you put that much stock into polls, Biden has lead even before he joined the race......

People don't vote for positions or policies. They vote for rhetoric and impressions. And, historically speaking, they don't vote for progressives.

Who is making an actual argument for progressive policies and who are trying to bury it just to base policy on what the polls say this week?

Why does Canada spend less of its GDP on Health Care on than the US? Pretty simple question, why isn't it asked more often?

[Theleviathan]

Is the contention that Biden has never done anything progressive? It sounds like that's the claim?

[Gray Lensman]

He does this alot, he passes his opinion off as facts and then when he's pushed on it he just pretends he's above the discussion he freely engaged in. It's silly should have kept him on blocl. Learned my lesson.

Either way you are mostly correct. Medicare for All is extremely popular. It polls unbelievably well. Taxing the rich more polls well overall and even amongs the wealthy. Eliminating college debt? You'd win the millenial generations loyalty for decades. There's no proof to be shown that they are unpopular positions. And when you have 20 Democrats on stage, most of whom never supported anywhere near those policies all trying to get as close as they dared to them, it kind of undercuts any notion that they are unpopular.

Medicare for All is less popular when the respondents are told that it would replace their existing health insurance. Much. Less. Popular. That's one thing I think Beto got right, rather than trying to start with Medicare for All, start with Medicare for Anyone (which uses the system to plug the uninsured gaps). And then, deal with what helps push the costs so high - monopolistic practices from providers and pharmaceutical companies, high malpractice costs, and the total lack of power the consumer has in the system.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

And yet, if you put that much stock into polls, Biden has lead even before he joined the race......

People don't vote for positions or policies. They vote for rhetoric and impressions. And, historically speaking, they don't vote for progressives.

It's early in the primary and Biden was the VP for 8 years. Name recognition means a lot now. In 2008 Obama was not expected to win this early on. Right now most of the country doesn't know most of these candidates. The top ones were the last VP and the runner up from the last primary. That usually changes as debates and campaigning and primary goes through.

[Theleviathan]

It's early in the primary and Biden was the VP for 8 years. Name recognition means a lot now. In 2008 Obama was not expected to win this early on. Right now most of the country doesn't know most of these candidates. The top ones were the last VP and the runner up from the last primary. That usually changes as debates and campaigning and primary goes through.

So polls matter when they agree with you and you can dismiss them when they don't?

[aja_christopher]

They do not owe me something, they owe the American people and the Third Way has failed to deliver anything real to them.

Again, it's useless to argue about this -- if you want to believe the Democrats haven't delivered "anything real" then so be it.

[numberthirty]

I posted plenty of links to facts which you ignored, not the least of which is how "progressives" didn't win the midterms for the Democrats, moderates did -- and how they actually fared badly overall in said elections, especially in competitive races.

https://www.vox.com/2018/11/7/180717...elections-2018

That said I thought you learned your lesson a long time ago when you said you'd stop posting here just because not everyone agrees with your views.

But here you are still attacking Democrats and complaining when others point out the numerous flaws in your chosen candidate.

Can progressives win national elections more than moderates? Possibly.

Have they done so thus far? No.

That's not my "opinion" -- that's fact.

By that logic, every woman running for the Democratic Party nomination needs to get out of the race last Tuesday.

Which makes right around "Zero..." sense.

[Mister Mets]

Out of honest curiosity here...

How does that Ilhan Omar just got elected in the sort of mid-term election you are saying that you don't believe progressive candidates can get elected it?

Lets set aside the other examples that someone could point to, and just make it about that one candidate who obviously won.

Is that not really a national election the way you see it?

Ilhan Omar won in a district Hillary won 74-19 and Obama had won twice 74-24.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Minnesot...ional_district

This is not close to a swing district or any kind of indication that her politics play well nationally.

[aja_christopher]

[Deleted to avoid the 30 rabbit hole.]

[The Overlord]

Is the contention that Biden has never done anything progressive? It sounds like that's the claim?

I am not saying he has never done anything progressive, but the question is, has he done enough that you can call him a progressive and if he has not, why not?

Who are we defining as a progressive or not?

Again, it's useless to argue about this -- if you want to believe the Democrats haven't delivered "anything real" then so be it.

I do not think the Dems have delivered much since the 90s, I am willing to stand by that.

If we cannot debate whether Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders or Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton have the better policy platform, what is the point of any of this?

If we are focusing on style over substance, why not just pick Bard Pitt to take on Trump, you as well at that point.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Medicare for All is less popular when the respondents are told that it would replace their existing health insurance. Much. Less. Popular. That's one thing I think Beto got right, rather than trying to start with Medicare for All, start with Medicare for Anyone (which uses the system to plug the uninsured gaps). And then, deal with what helps push the costs so high - monopolistic practices from providers and pharmaceutical companies, high malpractice costs, and the total lack of power the consumer has in the system.

That's because it's not explained properly and the way it's described is leading. Medicare for all would not replace existing health insurance entirely. In fact Bernie's plan explicitely says it is not abolishing private insurance.

What it says is that their will precisely the same coverage from private insurance will be prohibited. Which is by design to get the most comprehensive coverage being in the largest pool supported by the most people which radically drives prices down. From there you can get any private insurance you want on top of that that you think has better benefits than what you are already going.

So basically the argument is, if you think your current insurance is significantly better than what you get out of Medicare, you get to keep it. If it's a wash, you get Medicare by default. But the idea behind it is that with Medicare you won't have deductibles on top of whatever you would pay for premium.

Of course when you frame it as "they are going to rip you off your insurance and get you on this government one" it's going to sound worse. When you actually explain the details it makes more sense to people.

It's the same tactic that was used against Obamacare about being able to keep your insurance. Except that was a bit worse because it wasn't making it so that Medicare had to be an exact duplicate of whatever you would be shifted off of.

[Theleviathan]

I am not saying he has never done anything progressive, but the question is, has he done enough that you can call him a progressive and if he has not, why not?

Who are we defining as a progressive or not?

It would seem to me that "progressive" is very subjective that renders such a discussion pretty damn hard. Probably pointless too. Worst of all - it's the kind of purity test I don't think works for anyone who has any kind of record as a public servant. Most people who have been active members of the government for any length of time are going to be something of a mixed bag.

Bernie only gets to take credit for being a pure "progressive" because he's accomplished about as much as I have as a Senator.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

So polls matter when they agree with you and you can dismiss them when they don't?

Sounds like it is the other way around. You're talking policy vs election, which are two different things. Odds are if you have favorable opinion on free college and medicare for all you at least know the concept of what they are. How many people in this country being polled by Dems knew who Marianne Willaimson or Jay Insilee were before the debates?

You're again making a false argument, the two guys that most people know the most are leading the polls in the early stages. We've seen this before and we've seen it change as the primary develops. We also know based off historical data that polling for primaries this early is not indicative of outcome.

[Mister Mets]

I am not saying he has never done anything progressive, but the question is, has he done enough that you can call him a progressive and if he has not, why not?

Who are we defining as a progressive or not?

This may be a good question for his critics and his supporters. What do they mean by progressive?

You could have one person arguing that he has a record of being to the left of the rest of the nation, and of taking stands on issues relatively early, while you could have someone else criticizing him for making compromises in 1988 that some of the Democratic presidential contenders wouldn't support now.