All Purpose News and Politics Thread Part IV: The Center Cannot Hold

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Sure, Trump is kinda an idiot savant, when it comes to this stuff. Trump harped on a couple of things with Clinton (a lot of BS, but a little truth to make it stick).

What is needed is some lessons from 2016:

* Don't assume he will implode, Clinton made that gamble and it cost her.

* Counter the 3 things he will bring up.

* Do not cede ground to him, Clinton thought she could just cede ground to him on trade and he clobbered her with it.

I think Sanders and Warren will have fewer weaknesses then Biden (Trump will scream socialist at them no matter what and the ''Native American thing'' with Warren will be brought up by Trump a million times), but I think Biden has more exploitable flaws then either of them.

Trump's a good sales person and he understands the value of framing arguments to problems and not throwing shit at the wall just because you can. A good sales problem finds the two or three major concerns a person might have and then constructs their pitch to keep hitting them over and over again with how their solution addresses those concerns or how their competitor doesn't. A bad sales person just starts listing features and hopes they can overwhelm their prospect.

Trump identified that Hillary had an issue with trustworthiness and her perceived closeness with Wall Street. The emails argument and her speeches were the two big counters he kept hammering in over and over again. They were effective because he never let them leave people's mind.

Hillary would regurgitate a list of all the stupid shit Trump ever did or said and by the time she got half way through people already forgot the first one.

[The Overlord]

Trump's a good sales person and he understands the value of framing arguments to problems and not throwing shit at the wall just because you can. A good sales problem finds the two or three major concerns a person might have and then constructs their pitch to keep hitting them over and over again with how their solution addresses those concerns or how their competitor doesn't. A bad sales person just starts listing features and hopes they can overwhelm their prospect.

Trump identified that Hillary had an issue with trustworthiness and her perceived closeness with Wall Street. The emails argument and her speeches were the two big counters he kept hammering in over and over again. They were effective because he never let them leave people's mind.

Hillary would regurgitate a list of all the stupid shit Trump ever did or said and by the time she got half way through people already forgot the first one.

Trump is easy to underestimate, he presents himself as a drooling moron, but there is a certain reptilian cunning that guides his actions, no one should assume they will win against him.

[TheManInBlack]

"Beto O'Rourke holds protest at downtown Houston facility housing unaccompanied minors"
[I]
More than 100 people attended the protest Saturday. O’Rourke is hoping to shut down facilities like Casa Sunzal and others that house undocumented kids.

I'm willing to admit I could be missing something here, but where would those kids go upon the shutdown of the facility? My understanding is that a significant portion of them traveled by themselves or with non-family members. I'm all for a better solution, but what is it? It's easier to tear down than to suggest a viable solution. So what's the solution?

[Theleviathan]

You probably should acknowledge that there is a actually is a progressive wing of the Party and that most people in that wing don't view Biden as a progressive and that you are not considered part of that wing of the party.

Many who call themselves progressives do not like Biden, that's true. You didn't spend any time saying anything that reasonable. Instead you said he isn't and never was a progressive. Perhaps you should take more time to say things in a way that aren't so preposterous and answer the challenges to you as presented. It seems to be a difficulty you have.

[Theleviathan]

Fair enough and that may be enough for the short term, but the long term needs to address.

If Biden defeats Trump but does not defeat Trumpism, we could someone like Trump talking power in short order again. Reagan moved the Overton window to the right in the 80s and the Dems allowed it to go further right in the meantime. Anyone who is not willing to fight to move that window further to left will ensure Trumpism will continue. and thrive

I think progressive policies will be good to push against Trumpism from an economic standpoint. However, I would suggest there are progressive tendencies in other areas that feed Trumpism as well. (Not unlike elements of conservatism feed progressivism, it isn't a one way street on that front)

[Tendrin]

Taking a walk in a hospital gown with an IV attached while black is now arrest worthy.

https://twitter.com/ATLBlackStar/sta...31712857612288

[Tendrin]

Meanwhile, a green shoot of sanity.

Prosecutors may not pursue manslaughter charges after an Alabama woman was arrested for the death of her unborn child, who was shot and killed during a December 2018 fight.
Marshae Jones was arrested Wednesday after a local grand jury indicted her on manslaughter charges, igniting a firestorm across the country. But District Attorney Lynneice Washington's office urged caution in a late Thursday news release, saying the office has not yet decided whether to pursue the manslaughter charge, reduce it or drop the case altogether.

Marshae Jones, 27, was arrested and indicted on the count of manslaughter for failing to remove herself from harm's way in a shooting last year that caused her to lose her pregnancy. (Photo: Jefferson County Jail)
"Foremost, it should be stated that this is a truly tragic case, resulting the death of an unborn child," the release stated. "We feel sympathy for the families involved, including Ms. Jones, who lost her unborn child. The fact that this tragedy was 100% avoidable makes this case even more disheartening."
Jones' case is odd and, some say, unprecedented. According to al.com, 23-year-old Ebony Jemison was initially charged in December 2018 after a shooting in Pleasant Grove led to the death of the unborn child.

[aja_christopher]

I'm willing to admit I could be missing something here, but where would those kids go upon the shutdown of the facility? My understanding is that a significant portion of them traveled by themselves or with non-family members. I'm all for a better solution, but what is it? It's easier to tear down than to suggest a viable solution. So what's the solution?

How about finding out what's actually going on in these facilities before trying to argue that there isn't a "better" solution to what's happening within them.

If you don't even know how many of them traveled here "by themselves" then it doesn't make sense to argue that that's the problem at hand, much less whether they are being treated humanely (food, hygiene, medical care, etc) while in custody -- and that's assuming the Trump administration even kept track of their family members to begin with.

Address the issue of transparency if nothing else -- our government shouldn't be hiding what it's doing to children with our tax dollars. If what they are doing is legit and above board then why hide it from government officials and the general public?

As for a more viable solution -- stop enforcing this "zero tolerance" nonsense that helped create the separation crisis in the first place.

-----
"The Trump administration family separation policy is an aspect of US President Donald Trump's immigration policy. The policy was presented to the public as a "zero tolerance" approach intended to deter illegal immigration and to encourage tougher legislation.[1][2][3][4] It was adopted across the entire US–Mexico border from April 2018 until June 2018,[5][6][7] however later investigations found that the practice of family separations had begun a year previous to the public announcement.[8]

Under the policy, federal authorities separated children from parents or guardians with whom they had entered the US illegally.[6][9][10] The adults were prosecuted and held in federal jails, and the children placed under the supervision of the US Department of Health and Human Services.[6]

By early June 2018, it emerged that the policy did not include measures to reunite the families that it had separated.[11][12] Following national and international criticism,[13][14][15][16][17][18] on June 20, 2018, President Trump signed an executive order ending family separations at the border, although in March 2019, a government report showed that since that time 245 children had been removed from their families, in some cases without clear documentation undertaken to track them in order to reunite them with their parents.[7][19]

Media reports published in February 2019 to June 2019 state that family separations have still been continuing despite the ban in June 2018.

On June 26, 2018, US District Judge Dana Sabraw of the US District Court for the Southern District of California issued a nationwide preliminary injunction against the family separation policy and ordered that all children be reunited with their parents within 30 days.[20][21] On July 26, the Trump administration said that 1,442 children had been reunited with their parents while 711 remained in government shelters.[22]

In January 2019, the administration acknowledged that thousands more children may have been separated from their families than the previously reported figure of 2,737 with officials uncertain of the exact number. Federal officials said there are no plans to attempt to reunite these children because "it would destabilize the permanency of their existing home environment, and could be traumatic to the children."[23][24]

In May 2019, the administration acknowledged that at least an additional 1,712 migrant children may have been separated from their parents.[25] In June 2019, an inspection of a Clint, Texas detainment center holding infant, child, and teenage migrants found the children to be without adequate food, bedding, soap, toothpaste and clean clothing...

Multiple media accounts, as well as direct testimony from detained migrants to members of Congress, reported that immigrant families lawfully presenting themselves at ports of entry seeking asylum were also being separated.[63][64][10][10] Speaking on Face the Nation on June 17, Senator Susan Collins said that the Secretary of Homeland Security Kirstjen Nielsen had testified before the Senate that asylum seekers with families would not be separated if they presented themselves at a legal port of entry, "Yet, there are numerous credible media accounts showing that exactly that is happening, and the administration needs to put an end to that right off."[9]

Later in the day Nielsen tweeted: "We do not have a policy of separating families at the border. Period.""

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_...aration_policy

[TheManInBlack]

How about finding out what's actually going on in these facilities before trying to argue that there isn't a "better" solution to what's happening within them.

If you don't even know how many of them traveled here "by themselves" then it doesn't make sense to argue that that's the problem at hand, much less whether they are being treated humanely (food, hygiene, medical care, etc) while in custody -- and that's assuming the Trump administration even kept track of their family members to begin with.

Address the issue of transparency if nothing else -- our government shouldn't be hiding what it's doing to children with our tax dollars. If what they are doing is legit and above board then why hide it from government officials and the general public?

As for a more viable solution -- stop enforcing this "zero tolerance" nonsense that helped create the separation crisis in the first place.

My reply was specifically to the "O’Rourke is hoping to shut down facilities like Casa Sunzal and others that house undocumented kids." quote. I'm all for transparency and humane treatment. My question, specifically, is that if we shut down or stop funding these facilities, WHERE will the children go? Many are unaccompanied or traveling with non-family members. As for the ones with family members, I agree that they should be with their parents. So to facilitate that, what should we do? The parents are held until they are processed, and the places they are being held are already overcrowded and get worse every day with the constant flow of migrants. If we stop funding these facilities, as many progressives suggest, things will get even worse and there certainly won't be room for kids.

So that's really two questions: 1) What do we do for kids who are here without parents if we close the facilities. They have to go somewhere. And 2) Where do we put the kids with parents if the parents are already at facilities that are overcrowded and underfunded?

[aja_christopher]

My reply was specifically to the "O’Rourke is hoping to shut down facilities like Casa Sunzal and others that house undocumented kids." quote. I'm all for transparency and humane treatment. My question, specifically, is that if we shut down or stop funding these facilities, WHERE will the children go?

Again -- that's something that can't be answered until we know more about the situation as a whole. One thing is for certain however -- what the Republicans are doing right now isn't humane and it isn't working.

Moreover, it's easy for you to sit here and say that these children are "unaccompanied" but the reality is that none of us know what's really going on with these kids because Trump won't even tell the public the truth about his separation policy -- until we have all of the facts at hand it doesn't make sense to venture any long-term "solutions" to an issue that we know little to nothing about due to both Trump's lies and the absolute lack of transparency.

And I likewise think you know as well as I do that Democrats don't want to "stop funding these facilities" and just throw these kids out onto the street -- it's a false debate that only has current validity because (once again) Republicans have created a mess that others will have to find a way to clean up.

You want an answer to your question -- then ask the people who are out there doing the actual work (like Beto) and seeking alternatives to these Republican-manufactured "crises". Let's be real -- if we wanted to, we (as Americans) could easily find or build decent places for these kids to live other than overcrowded, dirty "detention camps" but that's not what Trump or the Republicans in power want.

Many want to treat these immigrants as badly as possible -- even taking their children from them -- in order to deter them from attempting to come here, whether legally or illegally and that's the issue that needs to be addressed first and foremost.

Republican motto: We created/exacerbated a problem -- how are Democrats going to fix it? It's the same thing that happens every time Republicans get into office and fortunately (so far) Democrats have risen to the challenge each time it happens. I doubt this time will be any different, so long as the Republicans get out of the way and let Democrats address it via legislation -- which we both also know won't happen under Trump and McConnell, who will only make the situation worse before the Democrats eventually take power again.

As it stands, the only real question is how much damage will Trump and the Republicans do to our country -- and it's reputation -- before that happens.

-----
"U.S. House passes $4.5 billion border aid bill amid mounting concern for detained migrant children"

"As reports of migrant children being held in squalid conditions at federal facilities near the border continue to draw outrage, Democrats successfully pushed a $4.5 billion humanitarian aid package through the U.S. House late Tuesday evening with a vote of 230 to 195.

The passage of the bill marks a narrow victory for Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, who managed to coalesce a unified front after several days of uncertainty and division within the party. Ultimately, only four Democrats broke rank, and none of them were Texans. Among the Republicans from the state, U.S. Rep. Will Hurd, R-Helotes, was the only member to buck his party, voting in favor of the bill. Hurd's district covers much of the state's border with Mexico.

In the days leading up to the vote, opposition on the Democratic side was concentrated primarily among members of the House Progressive and Congressional Hispanic caucuses who voiced concerns that the Trump administration would twist the bill’s intent to put some of the money toward border enforcement rather than migrant aid.

Before the bill reached the House floor for a vote Tuesday evening, a notice from the U.S. House Appropriations Committee revealed that amendments to the bill would add several provisions aimed at funneling allocations directly into humanitarian aid. They established a 90-day limit on the retention of unaccompanied children at detention facilities, required higher standards of medical care and hygiene for unaccompanied children, and guaranteed access to translation services and legal support funds for all detained migrants. The new version of the bill also includes an accountability clause that threatens to end contracts with detention centers that fail to meet a certain standard of upkeep.

Democrats found themselves under heightened pressure to expedite border relief funding after inflammatory reports last week about the conditions within migrant detention centers. The Associated Press and other outlets exposed overcrowding, poor hygiene, and a lack of soap, diapers and toothpaste at a detention center in the West Texas town of Clint, citing lawyers who are monitoring conditions there under the terms of the Flores agreement, a 1993 settlement that dictates how children and families should be held in detention. More than a dozen children at the Clint facility were reportedly sick, and some were being quarantined, the AP reported."

https://www.texastribune.org/2019/06...hildren-grows/

[worstblogever]

In 2015, 2016, 2017, as well as 2018, "Crazy/Stupid Republican of the Day" published profiles of the U.S. Senator from Missouri, Roy Blunt, a man who somehow not only survived being caught up in the Abramoff scandal back when he was a member of the House, but went on to be elected to the Senate in spite of also doing favors for the tobacco industry while being caught dating Abigail Perlman (now Abigail Blunt), a lobbyist for Phillip Morris. Since, the Blunt family have still been repeated subjects of investigation of Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, who have noted lobbying firms have a habit of hiring Blunt’s wife and two children and corresponding votes to reward this arrangement from Sen. Blunt. But Roy Blunt is most famous for his namesake, the Blunt Amendment, which was an attempt to strip women of having contraception covered by their insurance plans that led to the Congressional testimony of Sandra Fluke, the insults lobbed at her by legendary bloviating ***hole (and friend of Blunt’s) Rush Limbaugh, and the entire framing of the “War on Women” around the 2012 election. In 2013, Blunt also wrote what many critics described as the “Monsanto Protection Act” to allow the corporate agriculture company to plant seeds even if they were deemed genetically or biologically unsafe (and of course, Blunt has also received contributions from Monsanto). We also sifted through Blunt’s voting record, which included voting for the 2013 Government Shutdown while voting against LGBT rights at every opportunity, the renewal of the Violence Against Women Act, Disaster Relief for victims of Hurricane Sandy, all measures on pay equality and raising the minimum wage, and against Dodd-Frank Wall Street reform (coincidentally, in 1999, Blunt voted to deregulate Wall Street to have a hand in creating the 2008 financial meltdown). Sen. Blunt is the man who used the excuse, "I can barely schedule a call with my son's math teacher yesterday so probably no,” as to why he was opposed to Merrick Garland having a confirmation hearing for the Supreme Court. He’s too busy for this whole Senate thing. But let us not forget that Roy Blunt would like to lay the blame for our student debt crisis where it belongs… on the students. Yes, back in April of 2015, Blunt blamed high student debt on “higher living standards” that college students were enjoying these days. I’m sure it was news to all the kids in college out there living off ramen noodles that they’re splurging too much while they’re in school.

And somehow, don’t ask us how, Roy Blunt won re-election in 2016, but only garnered 49% of the vote to do so. That may have had a lot to do with Blunt stoking the fears of Islamophobia by blaming Muslim communities for not doing enough to inform the government about terror suspects that Blunt feels are lying among their ranks, or when he got on Twitter and posted that his opponent, Democrat Jason Kander, didn’t know enough about threats we face like “radical Islam”. (NOTE: Jason Kander is an Iraq War vet and actually fought against Islamic terrorists, so…)

Thus, Roy Blunt went back to Washington and began signing off on every member of Trump’s Cabinet of Horrors. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. And while pausing on approving Betsy DeVos since she… you know, has never worked as an educator, that might have been the case for some moderate GOP Senators, Roy Blunt was ready to rubber stamp her from the start. After all, DeVos spent a fortune on trying to get Roy Blunt’s son Matt elected Governor of Missouri a couple years back, in the hopes that her bogus voucher schools would become widely used in education throughout the state. To say nothing of all of the money DeVos gave to Sen. Blunt himself. He approves every nominee, now matter how unqualified, no matter how much scandal in their personal background, and every judge, no matter how obviously non-partisan they are.

Roy Blunt still is a fine champion of women’s rights, if you live on Bizarro World. In 2017, he dug in and refused to call for the resignation of Missouri Governor Eric Greitens, who was not only embroiled in a case where he was accused of sexual assault and extortion with a mistress… but Eric Greitens was also simultaneously being investigated for breaking campaign finance law and a variety of other ethics charges.

Blunt remains as crooked as a snake with scoliosis, and will remain in office now, barring any ethics scandal destroying him, until 2022.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

Donald Trump, Kim Jong Un Meet At North Korean Side Of The DMZ

After becoming the first U.S. president to briefly enter North Korea on Sunday, Trump and Kim agreed during a closed-door meeting to restart nuclear talks. I'm sure Trumpanzees will look at this, puff out their chests and boast: "See? Trump did what no other president had EVER done!" That's because no other president was willing to give that murderous little troll or his father anything even remotely resembling legitimacy, knowing full well Kim isn't about to give up his nukes. A shame Trump, desperate to be loved by despots like Rocketman who's playing him like a cheap fiddle, can't figure that out.

**********

Trump Admits He ‘Gets Along’ Better With Dictators Than With American Journalists

Besides, Saudi Prince Mohammed bin Salman is going to spend $400 billion on “different things” in the U.S., according to Trump. Yeah, including "things" Trump has his fingers deep in. Meanwhile, silence from Republicans who'd go nuclear if Barack Obama said something like that.

**********

Joe Biden Faces More Scrutiny For Defending States’ Rights On Busing

Civil rights activist Al Sharpton called Biden’s comments “egregious” and said the entire Civil War was essentially fought over this concept. The fallout from Thursday continues chewing on Joe like a dog with a bone. I'm sure he'll recover but will be under a microscope at the next debate.

**********

Inside The Dangerous Rise Of ‘Abortion Reversal’ Bills

This year, five states have passed laws mandating that physicians tell patients their abortions can be reversed — even though evidence says otherwise. This is flat out fucking dangerous! NO physician with a conscience should spew insane nonsense like that.

**********

Oregon Republican Senators End Walkout After Killing Carbon Bill

After disappearing for nine days, Oregon’s Republican state senators returned to work. The only thing more abominable than this blatant refusal to do their duty is that Republicans in other states might well pull that stunt when it comes to bills they don't like.

[Mister Mets]

My reply was specifically to the "O’Rourke is hoping to shut down facilities like Casa Sunzal and others that house undocumented kids." quote. I'm all for transparency and humane treatment. My question, specifically, is that if we shut down or stop funding these facilities, WHERE will the children go? Many are unaccompanied or traveling with non-family members. As for the ones with family members, I agree that they should be with their parents. So to facilitate that, what should we do? The parents are held until they are processed, and the places they are being held are already overcrowded and get worse every day with the constant flow of migrants. If we stop funding these facilities, as many progressives suggest, things will get even worse and there certainly won't be room for kids.

So that's really two questions: 1) What do we do for kids who are here without parents if we close the facilities. They have to go somewhere. And 2) Where do we put the kids with parents if the parents are already at facilities that are overcrowded and underfunded?

The lack of answers is telling, and does suggest that this isn't just a one-sided topic.

The main suggestion is to release the families together, until a later court date.

If children came here unaccompanied, they should be found someone willing to take care of them. Obviously, we should not check into the immigration status of anyone who comes to pick them up as that would discourage undocumented immigrants from taking care of relatives.

Andrew Sullivan thinks this is not a well-considered strategy.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019...migration.html

Dude stop calling things a strawman because you don't want to address the principle discussion you decided you wanted to walk into. You are wasting everyones time. If you think Biden is a progressive, that's fine. You probably should acknowledge that there is a actually is a progressive wing of the Party and that most people in that wing don't view Biden as a progressive and that you are not considered part of that wing of the party.

You have a very alternative definition to alot of generally accepted values when it comes to the modern progressive movement that just don't reflect the reality of it. So yeah maybe for you it works. It's just doesn't hold much value in practice with the current structure.

The fact of the matter is you justed wasted everyones time because you refused to concede a point that what is generally accepted as the progressive part of the party doesn't view Biden as progressive so you just spun a bunch of none arguments and tried to muck it up as much as possible so you can win while losing the plot.

Thanks again for making a bunch of arguments nobody was interested in so you could try to find a way to be right on this one. Later

This is some circular logic to avoid definitions and just say that Biden isn't progressive because people who consider themselves progressive don't see him as progressive.

[aja_christopher]

The lack of answers is telling, and does suggest that this isn't just a one-sided topic.

You can't answer a question accurately until you know the extent of the problem at hand and Trump's lies and distortions on family separations make that virtually impossible -- the answer I'd provide (using government funding to hire more immigration judges for faster processing and to build better facilities for those seeking asylum) is reasonable, but a non-starter since Republicans would never allow tax funds to be used for that purpose, and instead prefer giving tax cuts to the rich and unnecessarily increasing military spending while pushing our country into record debt to providing for (brown immigrant) families in need.

Conversely, the Republican solution seems to be -- as I noted earlier -- to treat these immigrants as inhumanely as possible and separate them from their children to "deter" them from coming to America and requesting asylum.

The only thing "telling" about this situation is that Republicans (once again) don't seem to have a problem with mistreating non-whites in an effort to preserve white cultural hegemony in America and will openly lie while attempting to hide the truth about how badly they are willing to treat other human beings just to satisfy their racist "base".

[Tami]

Taking a walk in a hospital gown with an IV attached while black is now arrest worthy.

https://twitter.com/ATLBlackStar/sta...31712857612288

Here is a video of a news report from ABC News

Sheesh, even if he misunderstood his doctor's instructions and went too far from the hospital, the police should have escorted him back inside, not arrest him. It's funny, they use disorderly conduct as an excuse to arrest someine, but wouldn't anyone question the police if they felt they were being arrested fro no good reason?